Evan Mobley: 2023 All Defensive 1st Team

[Joe Henderson]

How would you build around a core of Allen and Mobley as the star? I'm not high on Ben Simmons because he can't shoot, but do think he'd fit on this team with Mo/Fro?

shooooooooooting

 

[Muffinalt]

shooooooooooting

Absolutely that, and good perimeter defenders to maximize their D. But we also need a scoring running mate who can ball handle an initiate.

 

[1B4IGO]

It wasn't the fans that ran him out of Milwaukee. He just used being Muslim as an excuse to get to a bigger market. He had no issues with the city or fans. He said he wanted to go to New York or Los Angeles for "cultural reasons" but the 2 biggest markets in the country? Yeah he wanted the bright lights and sadly for the Bucks he couldn't get them in Milwaukee.

Being an old guy I remember when the NBA had teams in Buffalo, Cincinnati and Kansas City. I wasn’t happy when they moved those teams instead of just trying to absorb the old ABA

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I moved all this over here from the game thread to continue the discussion....

Jokic can afford to be the hub of his offense and have every play run through him because he doesnt play a lick of defense or expend an ounce of energy on that end at all. Lauri Markannen showed us that on the first possession.

If that's your goal for Mobley's offensive development, you are going to see what I referenced for AD and Bron above. Giannis only broke through and made it beyond the first round because Bud took the ball out of his hands and made his ATL equal opportunity offense the focus and Middleton the closer come the 4th.

This isn't a Mobley vs Garland as facilitators discussion. This is a Mobley's development will be harmed long-term if we make him the primary facilitator discussion.

And I'm now tanned, rested, and ready....

I'm with @Cavatt on this. I think it's a bad idea to sacrifice Mobley's only current exceptional offensive skill based on a theory that he'll be too tired to play good defense. That's setting an artificially low ceiling of being a defensive specialist -- basically Marcus Camby -- on him, and I think that's nuts. If we're not taking advantage of his elite skills on both ends of the court, we're giving up a big part of what makes him special. So with that said....

I don't buy that acting as a distributor out of the high post - the Jokic role -- is all that exhausting compared to playing just as a normal PG or center. It may actually be less exhausting because it requires less constant off-ball movement. Jokic isn't a bad defender because he expends too much energy on the offensive end -- he's a bad defender because he's (self-admitted) slow as hell. And we wouldn't be asking Mobley to bring the ball upcourt on every possession either, which is something both LBJ and even Garnett did. Let the "PG" do that. It's just that once the ball is brought into the forecourt by the PG, a lot of plays (not all) would be initiated by passing the ball to Mobley at the high post or in a horns set.

Now maybe by the time he hits 30 or so, we might have to shift the load a bit on him if he starts getting fatigued. Or manage his minutes more. But right now, he's young, full of energy, and very slightly built so he's not lugging some huge body around the court. LBJ -- with a much heavier build that required more energy to lug around the court, played both a much more physically demanding offensive role, and was a defensive stopper, until at least 30. Let's give this kid a chance to do the same -- in a less physically demanding offensive role -- until he probems he can't.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

If you want to maximize Mobley's skills, he's a 5. If you want to put a ceiling on him, he's a 4.

The Mobley and Allen combo is working ok for now, but in the long run, you have to make a choice IMO. Right now we have two centers out there, with Lauri often funtioning as a kind of SF/PF hybrid due to Mobley's inability to shoot. That is not ideal and too little credit has been given to JBB for managing this lineup well.

I couldn't disagree with you and most specifically this part, more.

And I just spent 24 hours railing against the other extreme, which was primarily running the offense through Mobley. So now it's your extreme's turn to get some too.

You have a blank canvas of a versatile player and you are armed with the highest quality paints and brushes which are his core intangibles that you would never expect a 19/20yr old to have: Really High Offensive IQ, Really High Defensive IQ, Very good coordination and agility (guard like for a 7footer), Elite anticipation and patience for contesting shots and making quick reads for passing, Elite Measureables for defending in space, Great hands

And your solution is because he's a 7footer without automatic 25ft jump shot, to make him a center, which is developmental "paint by number"

He's 225 lbs (if he really added 10lbs since draft measurements) and last game we played the current MVP who weighs 285 lbs and knows how to use it while sporting a usage rate of about 99% for Denver. There is also this guy in Philly who weighs the same and would rather lean on defenders even more than Jokic. The first night of the season, Memphis had a 260lbs Kiwi running around with the sole purpose of setting bone setting picks and leaning on the guy he was defending at the other end of the floor. No thanks.

I give JBB credit for pushing for the starting 5 that I believe has the most balance and gives the most matchup problems while creating significant advantage for our bench unit, though he compromised on that vision for now with Sexton still starting over Okoro. It's not always about matching up man to man and letting that determine who should be at what position in your lineup. Lauri is a matchup advantage if he's fed early and often with the starting lineup. He scrambles defensive matchups because you cant leave most 3's on him and 5's dont want to be out there in space, he causes defensive coaches to concede somewhere on someone usually resulting on a 6'7 wing guarding one of Allen, Mobley or Mark. Allen and Mobley are above average to very good passers, so we're not talking about three 7footers who cant move in space and need to be spoonfed the ball in post ups to be threats or win their matchups on the offensive end. Offensively, Mark is more advanced and skilled as a scorer with range than Mobley, for now. Cool. Play him as a Gallo/Young Dirk 3 and offensively play Mobley as a high post 4 with Allen screening and rolling as a agile Capella like 5

The reason Mobley lasted until the 3rd pick instead of going 1st overall is the same reason Giannis lasted until the 14th pick: GM's and basketball minds who aren't courageous enough to think outside of the box with a blank canvass and use the high quality paints and brushes in his toolbox to push the conventional thought envelop and create something that other teams have to adjust to.

I dont want a paint by numbers piece with Mobley's tools

Do you know why he leads the league in shots contested? Because for the last two games, he has played SMALL FORWARD in a 3-2 matchup zone. He's been Scottie Pippen... AND he can rotate and become Kevin Garnett. If he's challenged 72 shots, I'm willing to bet that a good 35-40% of those have been outside the paint. He's Paul George turning lights out on the perimeter and then he rotates inside when the ball moves and becomes Roy goddamn Hibbert on the same possession

Don't limit Mobley's versatility and ability to switch around and freelance as a roaming defensive terrorist who is patient and smart enough with hip fluidity and length to redefine defensive big men for the next generation.

The term Unicorn wouldnt even apply to him anymore and then what in the hell would I call him?

Mobes? Ev? Emo?

Those all are terrible alternatives to Unicorn.

Which he is, because they exist. /EndRant

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

@The Human Q-Tip I'm reading your substantive post this morning after posting my "Heatcheck Mobley as a 5 rebuttal" and I see a lot theoretical overlap. Which means I don't think we disagree completely and am willing to admit that my hard take is more railing against the "we dont need a primary facilitator like Rubio or Garland on the floor because Mobley can do it" train of thought.

 

[The Oi]

The Duncan comp has been made already correct?

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

The Duncan comp has been made already correct?

Someone called him "Slim" Duncan in one of the game threads

 

[Cavatt]

Someone called him "Slim" Duncan in one of the game threads

Slim Duncan is really good

 

[I'mWithDan]

To me, the uniqueness of Mobley's talent is that he is incredibly adaptable. Adaptable and still effective.

From a developmental standpoint, I honestly think the guy is so supremely skilled, that you want a player like Mobley to do a little bit of everything. So, I guess I would argue he's player that might be development proof so to speak. We shouldn't ask him to do less......he doesn't need a narrow role to succeed. Improve every skill across the board and not necessarily try to specialize him in any one aspect. Let him play the 4, let him play the 5......sprinkle in possessions at the 3, just to see what happens. Let him bring the ball up 1-2 times a games. Whatever, just let him do it.

We also shouldn't view surrounding talent as a subtractive process.......Mobley does this, so subtract that. Because of the broadness of his skill, it isn't, "Oh, we don't need a Rubio.....because Mobley can be a primary facilitator"........it is more "Mobley can do anything, so which style of player does he best play with?". Style fits may lead to overlap, which is ok to me. A player like Mobley affords you the opportunity to have more flexibility with your roster, which is just something that makes him so unique for a young player. He isn't just "Bron and shooters".....and aim only for that narrow roster definition.

I hope our front office views it similarly.

 

[Cavatt]

To me, the uniqueness of Mobley's talent is that he is incredibly adaptable. Adaptable and still effective.

From a developmental standpoint, I honestly think the guy is so supremely skilled, that you want a player like Mobley to do a little bit of everything. So, I guess I would argue he's player that might be development proof so to speak. We shouldn't ask him to do less......he doesn't need a narrow role to succeed. Improve every skill across the board and not necessarily try to specialize him in any one aspect. Let him play the 4, let him play the 5......sprinkle in possessions at the 3, just to see what happens. Let him bring the ball up 1-2 times a games. Whatever, just let him do it.

We also shouldn't view surrounding talent as a subtractive process.......Mobley does this, so subtract that. Because of the broadness of his skill, it isn't, "Oh, we don't need a Rubio.....because Mobley can be a primary facilitator"........it is more "Mobley can do anything, so which style of player does he best play with?". Style fits may lead to overlap, which is ok to me. A player like Mobley affords you the opportunity to have more flexibility with your roster, which is just something that makes him so unique for a young player. He isn't just "Bron and shooters".....and aim only for that narrow roster definition.

I hope out front office views it similarly.

I think this is what I was trying to say. He needs to be involved in everything that goes on on the court. He seems to be able to do almost anything. That means he needs reps.

They way he looks over the D, reads it immediately, and makes the pass in one motion, it is just incredible. He was passing that oop to Lauri before he had even landed after jumping to grab that pass.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

@The Human Q-Tip I'm reading your substantive post this morning after posting my "Heatcheck Mobley as a 5 rebuttal" and I see a lot theoretical overlap. Which means I don't think we disagree completely and am willing to admit that my hard take is more railing against the "we dont need a primary facilitator like Rubio or Garland on the floor because Mobley can do it" train of thought.

I think I'd restate my POV as "I think Mobley/Sexton/Garland are all still developing, and I'm unsure who will ultimately be the best fit."

Each of our guards gives us something the other doesn't. Garland is obviously better at orchestrating an offense. Sexton is better at applying pressure to a defense and penetrating. Rubio has been a huge addition in terms of giving us a functioning offense, and I think both of our young guys are learning from him to the point where I'm not exactly sure what kind of players each of them will be later in the season.

There were some plays that made the Sexton/Mobley combination really interesting -- especially when Sexton had the ball at the top of the key and was looking to penetrate. The combination of Sexton pressuring the defense and forcing it to react, then having the potential to quick dish to Mobley who could make a read and then make a critical pass looked really good to me, and I'm not sure Garland is ever going to be as successful at pressuring/unbalancing a defense on his own as is Sexton. If Sexton continues to develop his passing, and Garland doesn't become more aggressive, and Mobley shows that he can be a 6-7 apg kind of guy, then I think that changes things. Because I think at that point, Sexton's ability/willingness to pressure a defense -- and better off-ball skills -- would be more valuable than the better playmaking you'd get from Garland.

But obviously, those are all "ifs" at this point, and there's a lot of season left.

 

[Lee]

The problem is that in the modern NBA, PF is a role that has a heavy emphasis on outside shooting. The guy playing the 4 should be able to spread the floor, pick and pop, have some gravity out on the perimeter. He should be comfortable hanging around on the weak side while the main action goes on elsewhere.

All of the above is even more true if you have a traditional starting center who can't shoot at all (like Allen). That guy will then be the one who's involved in a ton of pick and rolls at the point of attack, as he wouldn't be able to draw his defender out of the paint anyway.

I have no idea why people are fighting the idea that Mobley is 100% a center in this league. "Centers" are not what they used to be. If you have a skilled guy playing the 5, he can be an offensive hub, he can go outside if there's a good matchup, he can pretty much do anything out there. If you want to maximize Mobley's skills, he's a 5. If you want to put a ceiling on him, he's a 4.

The Mobley and Allen combo is working ok for now, but in the long run, you have to make a choice IMO. Right now we have two centers out there, with Lauri often funtioning as a kind of SF/PF hybrid due to Mobley's inability to shoot. That is not ideal and too little credit has been given to JBB for managing this lineup well.

The league still hasn't really adjusted to Mobley defensively because he's something of a non-factor anyway on that side of the ball, and it's only been a few games. He's still guarded like he has an outside shot. That won't last. Pretty soon teams will just ignore him when he's standing near the perimeter, and then we'll see how tough it will be to play Allen and him at the same time.

Mobley doesnt have the strength to guard about half the centers in the league and he might never really have that strength. His shot is developing, and I agree PF need a good 3 point shot these days typically. But Giannis, Zion, Draymond, all PF who shoot about the same from 3 right now and are top 10 PF's.

Mobley shot 30% last year from 3, and is working on the shot, he will be fine in a couple of years from distance. But I just dont see him being able to guard the Jokic, Vucevic, Valacunas, Lopez, Adams, Nurkic, Howard, Kanter, Bam, Towns, Gobert, Embiid and so on of the world. Maybe I am wrong and he can guard them some day, but i just see his shot developing being more likely than him adding enough size and strength to guard those guys.

Maybe both happens, we will see.

 

[Lee]

The Duncan comp has been made already correct?

Yes, its not a valid comparison, but it has been made. There games are not really anything alike, no insult to either, just a stupid comparison imo.

That said, Duncan was amazing, top 10 player all time.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Yes, its not a valid comparison, but it has been made. There games are not really anything alike, no insult to either, just a stupid comparison imo.

That said, Duncan was amazing, top 10 player all time.

Both fundamentally sound, no wasted effort or movement. Duncan came into the league after 4 years of college, and Mobley had only 1. Obviously, Duncan is easily a top 10 all-time player, and Mobley would have a long way to go. But I see a basis for comparison at least in the way they both move for big men.