Freddie Kitchens: vaguely employed

[Kbiz]

Goodbye Freddie. Thanks for adding another chapter in Browns suckitude. You had me fooled.

Fool me once, shame on you...fool me.....you can't get fooled again!

 

[FiveThous]

But he wasn't unknown. He was a running backs and tight ends coach in 1999. Up until Hue was fired Freddie was either a running backs or tight ends coach, with the exception of four seasons as QB coach. Eleven seasons with the Cardinals and not promoted to OC. He didn't find anyone else to hire him as an OC in all those years.

In other words, a complete and utter mediocrity with no ambition and no indication he could manage coaches or lead anything. Evidently he has some ability to coach pro players directly.

His weak-ass resume should have screened him out, but the Haslems and Dorsey interviewed him so Freddie must have impressed them enough to get the job despite his weak experience. That's what many Browns fans were hoping at least.

The problem with this franchise isn't Freddie. It's the knuckleheads who continue to make terrible decisions. From everything we've seen & heard of Freddie this past season how was he able to pull a Jedi Mind Trick on Haslem, Dorsey & Haslem? Can you imagine just how weak those interviews were? The Haslems don't have "due diligence" -- they have "doo-doo" diligence (or Hue diligence, if you prefer).

To repeat -- the Haslems and Dorsey hired a head coach who was a position coach in 1999 when Ty Detmer opened the season for us and was a position coach in 2018 when Baker opened the season for us -- as well as during the entire tenure of every fucking QB, HC and GM in that period.

Maybe it was Freddie's charisma that sold them.

Hue Diligence is going to be my fantasy football team name next year, lmao.

 

[red.]

 

[Hurl Bruce]

 

[Douglar]

Jackson: What’s next for this total mess called the Cleveland Browns?

Beyond who and what are next, the question from the outside is what's worse.

theathletic.com

Speaking of disgruntled offensive coordinators, Todd Monken’s one season with the Browns was a disaster. Monken had the offensive coordinator title but Kitchens called the plays, and it was clear that Kitchens and Monken were never on the same page. Multiple sources told The Athletic that late in the season, Monken would spend time on the field before games telling opposing coaches how bad things were with the Browns, calling the team a “total mess” and saying that Kitchens’ Sunday play calling generally steered away from most things that had been in the game plan from Wednesday-Saturday. ​

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

Obviously we know next to nothing about how all of this went down, but I will say as someone who works heavily in the weeds of complex modeling and needs to explain my analysis to people who have way too much responsibility to get as far into the weeds, a big part of my job is making sure my stakeholders understand my findings and recommendations.

IF Freddie went into it with an open mind and wanted to use analytics as a tool to help him (which it sounds suspect on) then the analytics team isn’t without blame on this. All the analysis in the world is meaningless if it isn’t being used by decision makers. And if you can’t communicate effectively to the decision makers so they can understand then you’re not providing much of any value

 

[JDailey23]

Obviously we know next to nothing about how all of this went down, but I will say as someone who works heavily in the weeds of complex modeling and needs to explain my analysis to people who have way too much responsibility to get as far into the weeds, a big part of my job is making sure my stakeholders understand my findings and recommendations.

IF Freddie went into it with an open mind and wanted to use analytics as a tool to help him (which it sounds suspect on) then the analytics team isn’t without blame on this. All the analysis in the world is meaningless if it isn’t being used by decision makers. And if you can’t communicate effectively to the decision makers so they can understand then you’re not providing much of any value

Maybe the analytics team thought it was beneath them to use crayons and water paint?

 

[The Oi]

Obviously we know next to nothing about how all of this went down, but I will say as someone who works heavily in the weeds of complex modeling and needs to explain my analysis to people who have way too much responsibility to get as far into the weeds, a big part of my job is making sure my stakeholders understand my findings and recommendations.

IF Freddie went into it with an open mind and wanted to use analytics as a tool to help him (which it sounds suspect on) then the analytics team isn’t without blame on this. All the analysis in the world is meaningless if it isn’t being used by decision makers. And if you can’t communicate effectively to the decision makers so they can understand then you’re not providing much of any value

Something to that. Good point. You gotta know your audience and you have a responsibility to communicate on their level, whatever that may be.

But if there is a top down mentality that analytics aren’t meaningful within the organization (which we now know to be the case about Dorsey who chose Kitchens), it’s going to be difficult to sell that to a guy who is learning on the job and is already overwhelmed even with the information that he’s been successful with previously.

I think the reality is that they need to hire a coach that is comfortable with analytics already instead of trying to sell him on it midstream.

 

[buzzdog]

Clearly from listening to how Freddie Kitchens spoke about analytics, he needed to be spoon fed his weelky analytics report by describing and translating the analytical terms into items from a Denny's menu (Tackle Factor measured by how many biscuits it takes to sop up a plate of gravy... Excitement Index measured in bacon slices, etc.)

Okay, that's a mean thing to say.

 

[Jordan]

Something to that. Good point. You gotta know your audience and you have a responsibility to communicate on their level, whatever that may be.

But if there is a top down mentality that analytics aren’t meaningful within the organization (which we now know to be the case about Dorsey who chose Kitchens), it’s going to be difficult to sell that to a guy who is learning on the job and is already overwhelmed even with the information that he’s been successful with previously.

I think the reality is that they need to hire a coach that is comfortable with analytics already instead of trying to sell him on it midstream.

Part of the problem is that coaches - even those who fully embraced analytics - do not necessarily understand statistical modelling that goes into a lot of analysis. So if DePo is telling Freddie that he should run more play-action because it has been more successful than the latter thought, the former has to be able to have examples demonstrating their results to Freddie.

A big problem that I have read about is certain coaches have built entire schemes based around a strategy that is not friendly to analytics/moneyball. People like Mike Zimmer and Jason Garrett have seen years of success as coordinators and head coaches by creating a gameplan that centers around ball-control. Freddie is from the Arians coaching tree and has seen the same success with a run-and-gun, long-developing play offense. So when you have a guy who did not grow up in football then there can be problems.

The challenging bit is not convincing player personnel that analytics can aid roster construction. The Browns have clearly relied somewhat on analytics over the last two drafts. Mayfield, Ward, Chubb, Avery, Callaway, and Greedy were all draft picks that places like PFF and Football Outsiders suggested were appropriate or high value for the draft slot. Ditto for signing guys like Carrie and Sheldon Richardson. My guess is, no matter the new GM, analytics will still play the same or slightly bigger of a player personnel role.

I think the appropriate area for concern is if you have a coach that can work with the analytics people. This requires both a coach who has already embraced it and an analytics department that knows how to translate models to said coach. There is a reason that the only team that have consistently embraced analytics at every level is the Eagles. It requires patience, and more importantly, communication and understanding between all members of the organization.

 

[Visitor]

This explains Kitchens' statement that he doesn't pay attention to stats. Almost like a big FU to the analytics department.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I really wish things turned out better for this organization. What a terrible year. But, there were certainly reasons to be concerned in the offseason... here were just a few.

Football's a business where not enough people are willing to put egos aside and just work towards being better.

Both coordinators are major concerns for me, and I wouldn't be surprised if things weren't perfect between Monken and Freddie. It's definitely awkward having your head coach be the real guy in charge of the offense and figuring out how you fit in.

Dorsey hasn't invested draft capital into the OL. The most he's spent was Corbett, who hasn't yet shown that he can play in the league.
Dorsey hasn't invested financially into the OL.
Dorsey traded away one of our best offensive linemen to add to our pass rush.

Dorsey has continued to draft speed and athleticism at "play making" positions (WR, DB, DL). If someone says that Dorsey has made protecting Baker a priority, there's the Dorsey cult of personality again. Dorsey is good, protecting the QB is good, therefore Dorsey must value protecting the QB. You're implanting your own football thoughts onto the man.

I feel one of the biggest reasons our running game was so effective was how good our interior OL was. I'm also worried about how far Kitchens is willing to remove himself from the offense in order to focus on being a head coach and letting Monken do his job.

I hope everything works out perfectly. But there are things to be aware of or concerned about.

I guess we'll see how things shake out. But I wouldn't be surprised if Landry and OBJ are within 20 targets at the end of the season.

(Landry: 138; OBJ: 133.)

No matter what regime we get (your guy, not your guy) let's all try to be level-headed. The GM/HC isn't going to be perfect, and they aren't going to be automatic garbage.

 

[Vee-Rex]

I really wish things turned out better for this organization. What a terrible year. But, there were certainly reasons to be concerned in the offseason... here were just a few.









(Landry: 138; OBJ: 133.)

No matter what regime we get (your guy, not your guy) let's all try to be level-headed. The GM/HC isn't going to be perfect, and they aren't going to be automatic garbage.

Weird flex but ok

 

[Sebastian]

Part of the problem is that coaches - even those who fully embraced analytics - do not necessarily understand statistical modelling that goes into a lot of analysis. So if DePo is telling Freddie that he should run more play-action because it has been more successful than the latter thought, the former has to be able to have examples demonstrating their results to Freddie.

A big problem that I have read about is certain coaches have built entire schemes based around a strategy that is not friendly to analytics/moneyball. People like Mike Zimmer and Jason Garrett have seen years of success as coordinators and head coaches by creating a gameplan that centers around ball-control. Freddie is from the Arians coaching tree and has seen the same success with a run-and-gun, long-developing play offense. So when you have a guy who did not grow up in football then there can be problems.

The challenging bit is not convincing player personnel that analytics can aid roster construction. The Browns have clearly relied somewhat on analytics over the last two drafts. Mayfield, Ward, Chubb, Avery, Callaway, and Greedy were all draft picks that places like PFF and Football Outsiders suggested were appropriate or high value for the draft slot. Ditto for signing guys like Carrie and Sheldon Richardson. My guess is, no matter the new GM, analytics will still play the same or slightly bigger of a player personnel role.

I think the appropriate area for concern is if you have a coach that can work with the analytics people. This requires both a coach who has already embraced it and an analytics department that knows how to translate models to said coach. There is a reason that the only team that have consistently embraced analytics at every level is the Eagles. It requires patience, and more importantly, communication and understanding between all members of the organization.

Dorsey and Kitchens savor of Blockbuster in 2012.

Those that don't adapt go extinct.

My question, however, is did not Haslam know about Dorsey's anti-analytics stance before he hired him? And why let this rivalry fester rather than step-in?

Dorsey's, and Kitchens,' continued refusal to take analytics seriously should have been grounds for stern intervention sooner.

 

[CBBI]

Dorsey and Kitchens savor of Blockbuster in 2012.

Those that don't adapt go extinct.

My question, however, is did not Haslam know about Dorsey's anti-analytics stance before he hired him? And why let this rivalry fester rather than step-in?

Dorsey's, and Kitchens,' continued refusal to take analytics seriously should have been grounds for stern intervention sooner.

Fair or unfair, there was a HUGE amount of public pressure on Haslam to get a “football guy” in place in the football operations department after the Browns went 1-31 over two seasons with "three nerds from Harvard" in charge.

The original plan was to actually keep Sashi in place and bring in Dorsey to work with him in the front office.

My assumption is that Dorsey probably lied to Haslam about his willingness to embrace a heavy analytical approach with his more traditional old school grinder scouting methods.

And in one year with John’s additions they improved from 0 wins to 7. It would be totally impossible to shitcan Dorsey after 2018 especially how they finished once they got rid of Hue.

That’s how hilariously bad Hue was. Just getting rid of him made multiple people - Dorsey and Kitchens specifically - look a lot better than they really were in the short term.