Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #62 | Hornets @ Cavs | March 2, 2022 | 7:00 p.m.

[DingleDong]

that is a very interesting tool - thanks for posting it. It can be totally misleading to just look at the numbers, but the ability to watch the replay of each stat category is very informative. Just an example since that was part of your original post - watch Markk's plays and you see he got pretty lucky with people missing open shots (he gets caught over-helping and ball watching a few times). Allen gets rung up a number of times for being the guy "scored against" when someone else got beat and he was the closest defender. And Okoro actually looks great in that stat line - despite playing their primary scorers a good portion of the night, they only got 4 shot off on him and at least 1 of those was a fast break he couldn't have done anything about. If someone really wanted to pick apart our defense (and where the breakdowns are occurring), spending an hour with this tool would be very informative.

Well if you actually watch the shots, Allen is also multiple times the guy who lets his man just run past him. Your Okoro statement doesn't hold true because he has the least time spend on defending people involved in the offense out of the starting 5.

If you watch those 3 pointers made against Markkanen, you can see that Markkanen is overhelping the paint way too much. Is the situation really that bad with Allen and Mobley that Markkanen cant comfortably be on his guy on 3 point line?

 

[jjvors]

I think the things that he has in his arsenal already are the important things since a lot of which is instinctual and intelligence….

What he has to work on his far easier to obtain and achieve as opposed to a player that simply doesn’t get it…

Granted there’s been examples (and Mobley is light years more advanced than either) such as guys like Tristan and Joakim come into the league with the intelligence but not the refined game….. and they never developed it…. That’s rare tho —. It obviously can show you can have that and can stick around and make an impact even tho you don’t have the developed offensive game …

I would not be surprised if Mobley came back next season and was a 20-10 big man…The footwork and moves are there, he just needs a quality big man to work with him on a consistent basis….

Earlier this year I said I'd be very happy if Mobley turned out as good as Brad Daugherty, a 20-10 for ten years. I think his defensive potential is higher, and perhaps his offensive game can be better too.

Quite different body types. Brad was 7 foot 250-260, but quick and aggressive. He had a good mid-range shot and all the post-up moves you'd want.

Mobley's about 220-230, even quicker than Brad, but not as aggressive inside or outside. I expect that to change. Look at how Darius has become more aggressive.

 

[jjvors]

Well if you actually watch the shots, Allen is also multiple times the guy who lets his man just run past him. Your Okoro statement doesn't hold true because he has the least time spend on defending people involved in the offense out of the starting 5.

If you watch those 3 pointers made against Markkanen, you can see that Markkanen is overhelping the paint way too much. Is the situation really that bad with Allen and Mobley that Markkanen cant comfortably be on his guy on 3 point line?

I can recall at least one play when Lauri came in and blocked a guy who came into the lane. Certainly, the man with the ball in the lane gets priority over anyone on the wing.

 

[DingleDong]

I can recall at least one play when Lauri came in and blocked a guy who came into the lane. Certainly, the man with the ball in the lane gets priority over anyone on the wing.

The ideal situation with Mobley and Allen was that they were able to guard the player all the way and not letting them past. And either one of them was the weak side help. What we saw in last game was Allen and Mobley playing Lauris role where he puts the pressure on the player as long as he can and then the player is funneled to Allen-Mobley duo. This eventually lead to extra passes and easy baskets, either at the paint or free man on the arc. This is also the reason why our defense looks so bad. Allen and Mobley used to guard their players all the way to basket. I'm not sure if they are just flexing way too much from the paint or just getting way over their heads how good they are.

 

[KansasCavFan]

Defense stats from nba boxscore. Couple take aways.
It seems that Mobley and Allen aren't the defensive savants everyone is talking about. Mobley and Allen combined for 7-8 and 6-8 inside the arc.
Opponents went for 0-4 against Mobley in 3p line and 7-8 inside the arc.
It seems like Markkanen maybe isn't the liability he is supposed to be.
If Okoro is supposed to guard better players why is he spending less time on defending compared to others? Its both def min and partial possesssions.
What is Okoros role if he is just hidden both on defense and on offense?

View attachment 8818

I know you are not going to like this, but these numbers pretty much back up the number Wham posted a while back. Those numbers said the best unit on the floor together was Garland, Allen, Mobley, Okoro, and Wade. And it wasn't real close.

With that group, Wade gets the stand in the corner role, and Okoro gets to be more involved in the offense, where he becomes more effective. But that is not rocket science.

Coincidentally, since this unit has not been on the floor together for about 20 minutes a game lately, the team has not done well in the win/loss column.

Again, I know you won't like this, but it is what it is. The numbers support what the eyes see.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Its the nba.com Box score, they just add more stats after the game is over nowdays.

https://www.nba.com/game/cha-vs-cle-0022100932/box-score?type=defense

Thanks, I didn't know they added all those stats.

Kevin Love defended 7 shots and they scored 6 buckets. Ugh.

What surprised me was how many shots Allen and Mobley defended; 27 shots in 27 defensive minutes between them. What that tells me is our wings were getting beat off the dribble and Allen and Mobley had to pick up the shooter.

Okoro only defended four shots in nearly 12 minutes of defense. Either they avoided him or they were getting by him and one of our bigs had to challenge the shot.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

What an amazing tool that box score is, as Dr. No commented on. I just clicked on Love's defended shots number and watched the video of each shot he defended the entire game back-to-back. It's clear his lack of footspeed and jumping ability is really hurting his ability to defend (but we know that already). Even when he had good position on Harrell and Bridges they simply out-jumped him and scored easily.

He's slow closing on 3-point shots and isn't forcing misses. He's clearly trying to play defense and he's fundamentally sound, but he just doesn't have the foot speed or the hops to stop anybody.

What I'd like to see is a stat for "shot attempts denied" where the ball handler attempts to drive or shoot but the defender cuts him off and makes him retreat back to the 3-point line and start over with a new play. In that case the defender just used up a portion of the 24-second clock and put the offense in a short clock situation.

 

[buzzdog]

Thanks, I didn't know they added all those stats.

Kevin Love defended 7 shots and they scored 6 buckets. Ugh.

What surprised me was how many shots Allen and Mobley defended; 27 shots in 27 defensive minutes between them. What that tells me is our wings were getting beat off the dribble and Allen and Mobley had to pick up the shooter.

Okoro only defended four shots in nearly 12 minutes of defense. Either they avoided him or they were getting by him and one of our bigs had to challenge the shot.

This backs up what I observed. Our original defensive success required the perimeter defenders to be extremely aggressive, to stick closer to perimeter players, and to stay in front of them longer to at least slow down drives to the lane. Then our bigs were there when quicker guys inevitably get into the lane.

Lately our perimeter defenders are simply not playing as tight, not contesting as hard or as quick. They're allowing ball handlers to get around them with pretty soft resistance that's a step slow.

That puts more pressure on the paint defenders, and they also have been a step slow getting over to help where previously they were in better position sooner.

Just all the way around we're a little softer, a little slower, not communicating as well, and not anticipating as well. Some of that is offenses making effective adjustments and improvements and some of it is just our lack of intensity.

The other factor is how physical teams are getting, blatantly pushing, shoving, grabbing, swiping, and reaching in with whistles only being blown for a small fraction of the fouls being committed. I think that has inhibited us a lot.

 

[KansasCavFan]

This backs up what I observed. Our original defensive success required the perimeter defenders to be extremely aggressive, to stick closer to perimeter players, and to stay in front of them longer to at least slow down drives to the lane. Then our bigs were there when quicker guys inevitably get into the lane.

Lately our perimeter defenders are simply not playing as tight, not contesting as hard or as quick. They're allowing ball handlers to get around them with pretty soft resistance that's a step slow.

That puts more pressure on the paint defenders, and they also have been a step slow getting over to help where previously they were in better position sooner.

Just all the way around we're a little softer, a little slower, not communicating as well, and not anticipating as well. Some of that is offenses making effective adjustments and improvements and some of it is just our lack of intensity.

The other factor is how physical teams are getting, blatantly pushing, shoving, grabbing, swiping, and reaching in with whistles only being blown for a small fraction of the fouls being committed. I think that has inhibited us a lot.

One of the best, if not the best at staying in front of perimeter players is Wade. That is why the combination of Garland, Allen, Mobley, Okoro, and Wade post the best +/- numbers on the team.

Think Wade guarding KD if you need a visual to back up what the numbers Wham has posted say.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

One of the best, if not the best at staying in front of perimeter players is Wade. That is why the combination of Garland, Allen, Mobley, Okoro, and Wade post the best +/- numbers on the team.

Think Wade guarding KD if you need a visual to back up what the numbers Wham has posted say.

Wade has good lateral movement and is good at closing out, so he does help with perimeter defense. I'd also be curious to see what opposition those lineups played, and how many minutes they had together. I seem to recall we admittedly played weaker opponents during our most winning stretch. At this point in the season, as good as that unit is defensively, I wonder if that same lineup could produce the offense we need. Our schedule is not as easy as it was back then.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

@KansasCavFan I found the post you're referring to by Wham. I hope you understand that the stat he posted was that the Garland, Allen, Mobley, Okoro, and Wade unit isn't the best plus/minus lineup overall. It's merely the best of the four most used lineups the Cavs had played at the time. It's important to properly reference the context of stats used:

The two point guard offense

I was looking at how various 5-man combinations have done so far and was struck by how effective Garland and Rubio were when they played together. The numbers represent points per 100 possessions. Here is how units with Garland, Rubio, and the listed players have fared: Mark, Mobley, JA...

realcavsfans.com

If you're looking for the Cavs lineups with the best plus/minus overall, it's easy to find and sort on NBA.com:

Lineups Traditional | Stats | NBA.com

Ability to view statistics and advanced analytics for any combination of 5-man, 4-man, 3-man, or 2-man lineups that a team has played throughout the season. Lineup information dates back to the 2007-08 season.

www.nba.com

This index shows every lineup used throughout the course of the season, with number of games and minutes played as well.

If you sort by plus/minus, you'll see the very best lineup was used only one game for 4.2 minutes. It was Love, Rubio, Ed Davis, Osman, and Garland. Of course, that was just one tiny stretch, and hardly a good sample size. We don't know when it was played or against whom. And I highly doubt that unit would be the best one if played for extended minutes, LOL. No one is putting Ed Davis out there for extended time.

But of lineups that played at least four games together, the highest plus minus in favor was a lineup of Garland, Rubio, Okoro, Love, and Allen. This also goes back to Wham's post you've cited where he pointed out that the best lineups all had Rubio AND Garland in them together. However, since Rubio got hurt, such lineups don't quite have the minutes to make the top four used throughout the course of this season.

The second best lineup with at least four games together was Garland, Rubio, Osman, Love, and Markkanen. Again, another Garland/Rubio unit, as Wham pointed out.

Hope these stats give more proper context into which Cavs lineups were actually the best. And your guy Wade isn't in them. But as we've stated before, he's a nice piece when used in certain matchups.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

@KansasCavFan I found the post you're referring to by Wham. I hope you understand that the stat he posted was that the Garland, Allen, Mobley, Okoro, and Wade unit isn't the best plus/minus lineup overall. It's merely the best of the four most used lineups the Cavs had played at the time. It's important to properly reference the context of stats used:

The two point guard offense

I was looking at how various 5-man combinations have done so far and was struck by how effective Garland and Rubio were when they played together. The numbers represent points per 100 possessions. Here is how units with Garland, Rubio, and the listed players have fared: Mark, Mobley, JA...

realcavsfans.com

If you're looking for the Cavs lineups with the best plus/minus overall, it's easy to find and sort on NBA.com:

Lineups Traditional | Stats | NBA.com

Ability to view statistics and advanced analytics for any combination of 5-man, 4-man, 3-man, or 2-man lineups that a team has played throughout the season. Lineup information dates back to the 2007-08 season.

www.nba.com

This index shows every lineup used throughout the course of the season, with number of games and minutes played as well.

If you sort by plus/minus, you'll see the very best lineup was used only one game for 4.2 minutes. It was Love, Rubio, Ed Davis, Osman, and Garland. Of course, that was just one tiny stretch, and hardly a good sample size. We don't know when it was played or against whom. And I highly doubt that unit would be the best one if played for extended minutes, LOL. No one is putting Ed Davis out there for extended time.

But of lineups that played at least four games together, the highest plus minus in favor was a lineup of Garland, Rubio, Okoro, Love, and Allen. This also goes back to Wham's post you've cited where he pointed out that the best lineups all had Rubio AND Garland in them together. However, since Rubio got hurt, such lineups don't quite have the minutes to make the top four used throughout the course of this season.

The second best lineup with at least four games together was Garland, Rubio, Osman, Love, and Markkanen. Again, another Garland/Rubio unit, as Wham pointed out.

Hope these stats give more proper context into which Cavs lineups were actually the best. And your guy Wade isn't in them. But as we've stated before, he's a nice piece when used in certain matchups.

I think the loss of Rubio hurt this team a lot, perhaps more than people realize. In December the Cavs were 9-4 with Rubio played. His last game was Dec. 28.

But overall the Cavs have a winning percentage of .581. With Rubio it's .588 and without it's .571. So far they're 1.4 games worse over 82 games without Ricky. So maybe his loss hasn't hurt that much.

 

[Futuredome]

Rubio is a chunk of the problem. Defensively though, its a teamwide issue. I think if Rubio was still humming along with the team, we would still see this issue. Probably the grind of the season.

 

[Heatcliff Check]

We probably were slightly better with Rubio, BUT Rubio also played back when the league still hadn't figured us out.

Correlation is not causation. We've done plenty of winning without the guy.