Get Excited Somewhere Else: John Dorsey

[Bob_The_Cat]

While I don't necessarily want to can Dorsey quite yet, I have a hard time thinking the following scenario doesn't play out:

-Browns fire Kitchens and keep Dorsey
-Dorsey hires new coach
-Browns finish under .500 in 2020

If this happens, do we then fire Dorsey after next year? Do we keep the coach he hired that likely isn't any good? This is obviously a worse-case scenario type situation, but it's something I could certainly see playing out. At that point we're probably left gutting the team and starting all over again.

I haven't been thrilled with the results we've seen from Dorsey. Roster construction moving forward looks to be an issue. We're HEAVILY invested in two WRs and the OL is terrible.

Still need to give some of these guys time, but the early results haven't looked good. He was handed a war chest of picks and as of right now the only one we can say he really hit on was Chubb (again, the jury is still out on this).

The biggest issues I have moving forward is his inability to assess OL talent and potentially an inability to evaluate a head coach. Everyone likes to point out the Schwartz signing when he was in KC, but literally any GM with a brain would have signed Schwartz to that deal. He was widely seen as one the top tackles in the NFL and the Browns completely botched re-signing him.

Though it doesn't look great, you almost have to can Dorsey too. He created this environment as he's built the roster and hired Freddie. I guess it depends on who might be available as a HC. We might have to clear Dorsey out of the way in order to hand over some additional power to the new HC.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

If Dorsey is out, only reason because they have a big name head coach who wants power. Not many coaches out there that deserve that.

 

[EdMonix11]

While I don't necessarily want to can Dorsey quite yet, I have a hard time thinking the following scenario doesn't play out:

-Browns fire Kitchens and keep Dorsey
-Dorsey hires new coach
-Browns finish under .500 in 2020

If this happens, do we then fire Dorsey after next year? Do we keep the coach he hired that likely isn't any good? This is obviously a worse-case scenario type situation, but it's something I could certainly see playing out. At that point we're probably left gutting the team and starting all over again.

I haven't been thrilled with the results we've seen from Dorsey. Roster construction moving forward looks to be an issue. We're HEAVILY invested in two WRs and the OL is terrible.

Still need to give some of these guys time, but the early results haven't looked good. He was handed a war chest of picks and as of right now the only one we can say he really hit on was Chubb (again, the jury is still out on this).

The biggest issues I have moving forward is his inability to assess OL talent and potentially an inability to evaluate a head coach. Everyone likes to point out the Schwartz signing when he was in KC, but literally any GM with a brain would have signed Schwartz to that deal. He was widely seen as one the top tackles in the NFL and the Browns completely botched re-signing him.

Though it doesn't look great, you almost have to can Dorsey too. He created this environment as he's built the roster and hired Freddie. I guess it depends on who might be available as a HC. We might have to clear Dorsey out of the way in order to hand over some additional power to the new HC.

The most damning thing for Dorsey, in my eyes, is the fact that many of the guys he’s jettisoned from Berea have gone on to be much better players for their new teams than their replacements for the Browns.

We can talk about the trove of draft picks and cap space he’s blown through for very marginal success or the fact this coaching staff has been a miserable failure. But I think it’s his ego and his insistence on having “his” guys up and down the roster, as opposed to the “best” guys, that has really hurt this team’s future.

 

[inliner311]

The most damning thing for Dorsey, in my eyes, is the fact that many of the guys he’s jettisoned from Berea have gone on to be much better players for their new teams than their replacements for the Browns.

We can talk about the trove of draft picks and cap space he’s blown through for very marginal success or the fact this coaching staff has been a miserable failure. But I think it’s his ego and his insistence on having “his” guys up and down the roster, as opposed to the “best” guys, that has really hurt this team’s future.

This team should have been much deeper than it was. Really none of his guys have been upgrades to who they were gifted their position over. He cleared guys out most of the time without his guy actually having to compete for the position.

There is so much evidence of Dorsey picking his guys over better players which now has me questioning if Higgins and Njoku aren't playing because Dorsey asked Kitchens to do so.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

This team should have been much deeper than it was. Really none of his guys have been upgrades to who they were gifted their position over. He cleared guys out most of the time without his guy actually having to compete for the position.

There is so much evidence of Dorsey picking his guys over better players which now has me questioning if Higgins and Njoku aren't playing because Dorsey asked Kitchens to do so.

I guess this sheds some light on that:

David Njoku "not sure" he'll be back in 2020, if Freddie Kitchens returns - ProFootballTalk

For teams like the Giants, players like Daniel Jones are saying all the expected things about an embattled head coach. For teams like the Browns, where the unexpected is expected, the unexpected (and thus the expected) is happening.Tight end David Njoku, a first-round pick in 2017, was asked...

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

For teams like the Giants, players like Daniel Jones are saying all the expected things about an embattled head coach. For teams like the Browns, where the unexpected is expected, the unexpected (and thus the expected) is happening.

Tight end David Njoku, a first-round pick in 2017, was asked recently whether he thinks he’ll return to the team in 2020, if Freddie Kitchens remains the head coach.


“That’s a good question,” Njoku told Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com. “I don’t want to answer that yet. I’m not sure, so no comment.”

Asked whether he wants to return if the head coach does, Njoku didn’t say, “Yes.”

“I’m really doing everything I’m doing now for my teammates at this point,” Njoku told Cabot. “Obviously it’s been a rollercoaster and at this point in my life with where I’m at, I’m just doing everything for the guys that I play with.”

Njoku has appeared in only three games this year, after breaking his wrist in Week Two. The surprise comes from his limited use since returning from injured reserve in November. Njoku has appeared in only one game, catching one pass for four yards. He has plunged to fourth string on the team’s online depth chart, with Demetrius Harris and Ricky Seals-Jones the top two tight ends.

The Browns have to decide whether to pick up Njoku’s fifth-year option by early May. He has a fully-guaranteed salary of $1.76 million for 2020.

However it plays out, Njoku will know soon whether Kitchens will be back, or whether the team will be looking for a new coach who potentially will use Njoku more. Last year (with Kitchens eventually becoming the interim offensive coordinator), Njoku caught 56 passes for 639 yards and four touchdowns.

It's definitely odd since Njoku had a good year with Freddie as the OC in 2018. However, Njoku is a poor pass protector and doesn't have the greatest hands. He's still just a really athletic guy and not someone I'd call a great football player.

Also, the additions of OBJ and Hunt combined with poor OL play dramatically lessen the need of a TE who's only outstanding attribute is his athleticism.

Granted his year was cut short due to injury and suffered through one year with terrible QB play, three years into his career and he's barely over 1,000 yards with 9 TDs. Those numbers are pretty easily replaced.

 

[inliner311]

I guess this sheds some light on that:

David Njoku "not sure" he'll be back in 2020, if Freddie Kitchens returns - ProFootballTalk

For teams like the Giants, players like Daniel Jones are saying all the expected things about an embattled head coach. For teams like the Browns, where the unexpected is expected, the unexpected (and thus the expected) is happening.Tight end David Njoku, a first-round pick in 2017, was asked...

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

It's definitely odd since Njoku had a good year with Freddie as the OC in 2018. However, Njoku is a poor pass protector and doesn't have the greatest hands. He's still just a really athletic guy and not someone I'd call a great football player.

Also, the additions of OBJ and Hunt combined with poor OL play dramatically lessen the need of a TE who's only outstanding attribute is his athleticism.

Granted his year was cut short due to injury and suffered through one year with terrible QB play, three years into his career and he's barely over 1,000 yards with 9 TDs. Those numbers are pretty easily replaced.

I've posted earlier that I do understand the benching of Njoku. I think they loaded up on TEs and he became the odd man out. Probably would have been better just to leave him on IR.

I do think he will get worked back into the offense especially if Kitchens and/or Dorsey are gone. Maybe this lights a fire under him in the off-season to work on his hands and blocking. He should be able to beat out Harris while Seals-Jones and Carlson should be good compliments to him.

 

[raiders91sc]

While I don't necessarily want to can Dorsey quite yet, I have a hard time thinking the following scenario doesn't play out:

-Browns fire Kitchens and keep Dorsey
-Dorsey hires new coach
-Browns finish under .500 in 2020

If this happens, do we then fire Dorsey after next year? Do we keep the coach he hired that likely isn't any good? This is obviously a worse-case scenario type situation, but it's something I could certainly see playing out. At that point we're probably left gutting the team and starting all over again.

I haven't been thrilled with the results we've seen from Dorsey. Roster construction moving forward looks to be an issue. We're HEAVILY invested in two WRs and the OL is terrible.

Still need to give some of these guys time, but the early results haven't looked good. He was handed a war chest of picks and as of right now the only one we can say he really hit on was Chubb (again, the jury is still out on this).

The biggest issues I have moving forward is his inability to assess OL talent and potentially an inability to evaluate a head coach. Everyone likes to point out the Schwartz signing when he was in KC, but literally any GM with a brain would have signed Schwartz to that deal. He was widely seen as one the top tackles in the NFL and the Browns completely botched re-signing him.

Though it doesn't look great, you almost have to can Dorsey too. He created this environment as he's built the roster and hired Freddie. I guess it depends on who might be available as a HC. We might have to clear Dorsey out of the way in order to hand over some additional power to the new HC.

I agree Schwartz was a nice signing and many GMs would of signed hm but he wasn't seen as one of the top tackles in the NFL. He was seen as a starting tackle in the NFL and starting tackles usually don't see the FA market.

 

[Alec]

He should be next

 

[Marcus]

Sounds like he gets one more chance to get this right. If he’s not also on his way out of Cleveland, his seat has to be one of the hottest in the NFL.

He won’t survive another failed coaching hire or another offseason of not addressing the team’s glaring weaknesses.

 

[CBBI]

Going to be really interesting to see what happens if Haslam moves DePodesta ahead of Dorsey as the final decision maker in football operations.

I wonder if he would resign. Or if Paul would be afforded the opportunity to fire him and bring in his own GM that better aligns with his vision and strategies.

 

[Sebastian]

Bon voyage, mon ami.

 

[MrX]

We can talk about the trove of draft picks and cap space he’s blown through for very marginal success.

Have you met Nick Chubb and his marginal success. As bad as Bakers been this year what other rookie QB threw for 27 touchdowns. I guess Miles marginal success as well. We can even talk about KC picks of Mahomes Hunt and host of others. Browns history shows us just because you have good picks doesn't mean you get anything back. I was enjoying at the least there was hope

 

[AZ_]

We’ve reached the “the draft is a crapshoot anyway” portion of the season to defend these bums.

Yes, teams miss on drafts.

But the fact of the matter is even when they miss on a specific draft, they have a talent core, player development system and culture to get them through it.

The Browns do not have that locked in quite yet. Dorsey is doing this franchise a disservice in his coaching hires and the ability to install player development and culture that is consistent with the best franchises in the NFL.

It’s abhorrent, it’s short sighted. It’s unacceptable, full stop.

Jimmy/Dee

If you’re reading this, plz hire me.

 

[EdMonix11]

Have you met Nick Chubb and his marginal success. As bad as Bakers been this year what other rookie QB threw for 27 touchdowns. I guess Miles marginal success as well. We can even talk about KC picks of Mahomes Hunt and host of others. Browns history shows us just because you have good picks doesn't mean you get anything back. I was enjoying at the least there was hope

Garrett was a Sashi pick.... surprised Dorsey didn't get rid of him.

Besides Nick Chubb, please name another player taken outside of the first round that Dorsey drafted and had legit success here. You can't. Damian Ratley or Austin Seibert are the best of rest.... that's bad.

People are so in love with Dorsey's Kansas City days, they put blinders on. If he was so good in KC, why'd they dump him? They sure haven't seemed to miss him. People forget KC had Chris Ballard and Andy Reid in that front office while Dorsey was there too....

I'm tired of the whole "we were 0-16 two years ago and Dorsey saved us" BS. People act like Dorsey didn't inherit any talent whatsoever and that's a total joke. He inherited a team at the end of the 2017 season that included: Duke Johnson, Josh Gordon, Rashard Higgins, David Njoku, Seth DeValve, Joel Bitonio, Joe Thomas, JC Tretter, Austin Reiter, Kevin Zeitler, Myles Garrett, Carl Nassib, Larry Ogunjobi, Danny Shelton, Christian Kirksey, Joe Schobert, Jabrill Peppers, Jamie Collins, Emmanuel Ogbah, Nate Orchard, James Burgess, Jason McCourty, Ibraheim Campbell, Briean Boddy-Calhoun plus the 1st and 4th overall picks in the upcoming draft and the most cap space in the NFL.

I'm seriously debating whether I'd take the 2017 0-16 Browns w/ a new QB over this current Browns team. That 2017 team was a roster full of young and talented players who just needed time. Dorsey got rid of most of them and many of them have succeeded elsewhere. I mean, he basically just gave away guys like Nassib, Shelton, Ogbah, Burgess, McCourty, Campbell, Boddy-Calhoun, DeValve and Reiter. None are superstars but depth is what wins in the NFL and he just gave it away and never replaced them with guys of equal talent.....

He inherited an OL consisting of Joe Thomas - Joel Bitonio - Austin Reiter - JC Tretter - Kevin Zeitler and we had OL issues this year? No excuse for that.

How 'bout a defensive front seven that included: Myles Garrett, Danny Shelton, Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, James Burgess, Christian Kirksey, Joe Schobert, Larry Ogunjobi and Nate Orchard. And we're trotting out the likes of Chad Thomas, Porter Gustin and a bunch of rookies instead?

Or a secondary that included: Ibraheim Campbell, Jason McCourty, Briean Boddy-Calhoun, Jabrill Peppers. Instead the Browns were THAT thin in the secondary this year?

My God.... he didn't have to do ANYTHING to this roster other than to sprinkle in some talent-- hit on a few draft picks and spend a little in free agency-- and we're set for long term success. I'm sick that it's come to this..... I get that FO exec's are gonna have some misses but there's little excuse for Dorsey here..... he inherited a team with a young, talented and athletic infrastructure that was just missing a few playmakers and a QB. Sucks to say but Dorsey was much much worse than people realize.

 

[MrX]

Garrett was a Sashi pick.... surprised Dorsey didn't get rid of him.

Besides Nick Chubb, please name another player taken outside of the first round that Dorsey drafted and had legit success here. You can't. Damian Ratley or Austin Seibert are the best of rest.... that's bad.

People are so in love with Dorsey's Kansas City days, they put blinders on. If he was so good in KC, why'd they dump him? They sure haven't seemed to miss him. People forget KC had Chris Ballard and Andy Reid in that front office while Dorsey was there too....

I'm tired of the whole "we were 0-16 two years ago and Dorsey saved us" BS. People act like Dorsey didn't inherit any talent whatsoever and that's a total joke. He inherited a team at the end of the 2017 season that included: Duke Johnson, Josh Gordon, Rashard Higgins, David Njoku, Seth DeValve, Joel Bitonio, Joe Thomas, JC Tretter, Austin Reiter, Kevin Zeitler, Myles Garrett, Carl Nassib, Larry Ogunjobi, Danny Shelton, Christian Kirksey, Joe Schobert, Jabrill Peppers, Jamie Collins, Emmanuel Ogbah, Nate Orchard, James Burgess, Jason McCourty, Ibraheim Campbell, Briean Boddy-Calhoun plus the 1st and 4th overall picks in the upcoming draft and the most cap space in the NFL.

I'm seriously debating whether I'd take the 2017 0-16 Browns w/ a new QB over this current Browns team. That 2017 team was a roster full of young and talented players who just needed time. Dorsey got rid of most of them and many of them have succeeded elsewhere. I mean, he basically just gave away guys like Nassib, Shelton, Ogbah, Burgess, McCourty, Campbell, Boddy-Calhoun, DeValve and Reiter. None are superstars but depth is what wins in the NFL and he just gave it away and never replaced them with guys of equal talent.....

He inherited an OL consisting of Joe Thomas - Joel Bitonio - Austin Reiter - JC Tretter - Kevin Zeitler and we had OL issues this year? No excuse for that.

How 'bout a defensive front seven that included: Myles Garrett, Danny Shelton, Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, James Burgess, Christian Kirksey, Joe Schobert, Larry Ogunjobi and Nate Orchard. And we're trotting out the likes of Chad Thomas, Porter Gustin and a bunch of rookies instead?

Or a secondary that included: Ibraheim Campbell, Jason McCourty, Briean Boddy-Calhoun, Jabrill Peppers. Instead the Browns were THAT thin in the secondary this year?

My God.... he didn't have to do ANYTHING to this roster other than to sprinkle in some talent-- hit on a few draft picks and spend a little in free agency-- and we're set for long term success. I'm sick that it's come to this..... I get that FO exec's are gonna have some misses but there's little excuse for Dorsey here..... he inherited a team with a young, talented and athletic infrastructure that was just missing a few playmakers and a QB. Sucks to say but Dorsey was much much worse than people realize.

My bad, I did credit the wrong person for Miles.