Get Excited Somewhere Else: John Dorsey

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

For so many years the Browns were terrible strictly because they horribly failed every single time in the 1st and 2nd round. Now we're going to penalize a guy for taking people who are highly rated, maybe even 'consensus' picks? That seems weird.

-You can't just disregard Baker or Ward because they were "consensus" picks. Baker wasn't the consensus #1 pick by any stretch of the imagination. I can't say Ward was either.
-Chubb was a grand slam.
-Corbett was a big question mark. He had a pretty turbulent start here, but he's started every game this year for the Rams. Perhaps our staff just sucked and couldn't develop players?
-Wilson has played pretty well relative to where he was drafted

I think when you go back to include KC as well, yes, people will say he's a good talent evaluator.

Outside of the draft:
Traded for Teller
Signed Hunt

Those two moves alone have had a massive impact on our identity on offense. He wasn't perfect but he made some really good moves as well.

Did I ever say I penalized him for the picks? Of course not. I also never called Baker consensus. I started my post with "Thanks for Baker."

Ward was the consensus pick from a lot of us. But, in the national media, Bradley Chubb was the most popular option there.

I'm just asking where the talent evaluation reputation comes from outside of Baker. Everyone misses on draft picks, but that's a whole lot of complete misses. In 2019, that's an entire draft class with nothing to show from it.

Corbett isn't a question mark. He was traded away for a 2021 fifth rounder just a year after being drafted at #33 overall. The fact that the Rams depleted offensive line is starting him doesn't make him a better player. Dorsey traded away Zeitler, replaced him with Corbett, and our organization paid dearly for it.

Oh, and if the coaching staff couldn't do their job, that's on Dorsey. That's his responsibility and his doing.

I guess he does deserve credit for acquiring Wyatt Teller though. That's one thing I forgot.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

Did I ever say I penalized him for the picks? Of course not. I also never called Baker consensus. I started my post with "Thanks for Baker."

Ward was the consensus pick from a lot of us. But, in the national media, Bradley Chubb was the most popular option there.

I'm just asking where the talent evaluation reputation comes from outside of Baker. Everyone misses on draft picks, but that's a whole lot of complete misses. In 2019, that's an entire draft class with nothing to show from it.

Corbett isn't a question mark. He was traded away for a 2021 fifth rounder just a year after being drafted at #33 overall. The fact that the Rams depleted offensive line is starting him doesn't make him a better player. Dorsey traded away Zeitler, replaced him with Corbett, and our organization paid dearly for it.

Oh, and if the coaching staff couldn't do their job, that's on Dorsey. That's his responsibility and his doing.

I guess he does deserve credit for acquiring Wyatt Teller though. That's one thing I forgot.

Player evaluation isn't strictly draft:

Chubb
Teller
Hunt
Baker
Landry
OBJ

All brought in by Dorsey

 

[Seiklis]

Trading Peppers, Kevin Zeitler & 2019 Pick17 for Odell Beckham Jr. & Olivier Vernon seems great at the time, but 27 games in, it doesn't look like it was a win for the Browns in the short term or the long term. Maybe it was break even? Maybe? If it wasn't for the the OBJ drama and loss of cap space and Vernon's creaky knees. Peppers? He isn't lighting the world on fire, but on a team desperate for average defenders in the secondary he would be playing big minutes. OBJ never gelled with Baker. Loss of Zeller on the line was painful in 2019. The Browns were lucky to get Wyatt Teller this year to fill that hole last summer. Pick 17 could have been Dexter Lawrence or Marquise Brown. Both would have filled big needs on the team and may have been better than they Vets we got instead. OK, it's looking like a terrible bust of a trade.

Had we not done the OBJ trade I still believe Dorsey would have traded up to 8 for Ed Oliver using the 2020 first.

Trent Williams trade probably would have happened at that point.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Did I ever say I penalized him for the picks? Of course not. I also never called Baker consensus. I started my post with "Thanks for Baker."

Ward was the consensus pick from a lot of us. But, in the national media, Bradley Chubb was the most popular option there.

I'm just asking where the talent evaluation reputation comes from outside of Baker. Everyone misses on draft picks, but that's a whole lot of complete misses. In 2019, that's an entire draft class with nothing to show from it.

Corbett isn't a question mark. He was traded away for a 2021 fifth rounder just a year after being drafted at #33 overall. The fact that the Rams depleted offensive line is starting him doesn't make him a better player. Dorsey traded away Zeitler, replaced him with Corbett, and our organization paid dearly for it.

Oh, and if the coaching staff couldn't do their job, that's on Dorsey. That's his responsibility and his doing.

I guess he does deserve credit for acquiring Wyatt Teller though. That's one thing I forgot.

Yeah I was just thinking that if the blame falls on Kitchens and his staff for being unable to develop anyone, well, who hired Kitchens and almost certainly had a hand in picking his staff?

We also know that Dorsey wanted to keep Kitchens, so for that we should all thank whatever gods we pray to that he is long the fuck gone.

Let him play out his little power struggle with another franchise.

Player evaluation isn't strictly draft:

Chubb
Teller
Hunt
Baker
Landry
OBJ

All brought in by Dorsey

OBJ hasn't worked out at all for us and Hunt was only available because he kicked a girl on camera and we were one of the only teams willing to take the PR black eye that was signing him, mostly because he was drafted by Dorsey in KC.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Player evaluation isn't strictly draft:

Chubb
Teller
Hunt
Baker
Landry
OBJ

All brought in by Dorsey

Landry's another good one, but you can't call Hunt or OBJ feathers in his "talent evaluator" cap.

Hunt wasn't a talent question. It was off-field issues, and Hunt agreeing to sign with his hometown team to try and rebuild himself back up.

OBJ, I would say, is an example of awful talent evaluation. We paid for top-10 player in the NFL OBJ, and we have not gotten that.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

Landry's another good one, but you can't call Hunt or OBJ feathers in his "talent evaluator" cap.

Hunt wasn't a talent question. It was off-field issues, and Hunt agreeing to sign with his hometown team to try and rebuild himself back up.

OBJ, I would say, is an example of awful talent evaluation. We paid for top-10 player in the NFL OBJ, and we have not gotten that.

He drafted Hunt in KC. So, yes, he would get credit for evaluating Hunt.

People are solely equating talent evaluation to draft picks. That's not the case. Being able to evaluate talent to determine roster fit is part of the job when making trades or signing free agents. OBJ hasn't been great, but what we gave up for him hasn't been great either so the jury might still be out.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I would just like to point out one big sticking point between DePodesta/Berry camp and the Dorsey group were his aggressive approach for specific talent, and the long-view approach the analytics guys liked to take. Our guys valued future assets more.

So sure, go ahead and analyze the good and bad Dorsey provided to the Browns current state... but Dorsey being hired again is nothing but good for the Browns. The reasons he didn't work out are the same reasons he would be a great trade partner at his next stop... He can get players from the Browns or move up to a Browns draft slot and in return Berry can gain "analytics wins" from the trade.

Best of luck in those job interviews, Buddy Boy!

 

[FrontPageNews]

Landry's another good one, but you can't call Hunt or OBJ feathers in his "talent evaluator" cap.

Hunt wasn't a talent question. It was off-field issues, and Hunt agreeing to sign with his hometown team to try and rebuild himself back up.

OBJ, I would say, is an example of awful talent evaluation. We paid for top-10 player in the NFL OBJ, and we have not gotten that.

The entire league had an opportunity to sign hunt. He was out for a while. No one else did. He gets credit for bringing him in.

 

[JDailey23]

Would love to see him go to Detroit and turn that place into something respectful.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

The entire league had an opportunity to sign hunt. He was out for a while. No one else did. He gets credit for bringing him in.

He signed with us, for a measly one-year, $1 million, to just get back into the NFL and to be close to home while he rehabbed his image. I'd say Berry re-signing him to a cheap deal this year is far more impressive.

It shows one of Dorsey's philosophies--that he's willing to always take the talent, regardless of off the field issues.

If you want to put Hunt in the win column, then you're also going to have to accept the headaches. I don't need more Callaway, Josh Gordon, etc's on this team.

 

[FrontPageNews]

He signed with us, for a measly one-year, $1 million, to just get back into the NFL and to be close to home while he rehabbed his image. I'd say Berry re-signing him to a cheap deal this year is far more impressive.

It shows one of Dorsey's philosophies--that he's willing to always take the talent, regardless of off the field issues.

If you want to put Hunt in the win column, then you're also going to have to accept the headaches. I don't need more Callaway, Josh Gordon, etc's on this team.

it doesnt matter what he signed for. No other team was offering him anything. He was toxic. Dorsey took a chance and it’s winning is football games this season. And he got rid of callaway when he realized he wasn’t going to stay straight. And he did something no one GM had the balls to do and cut Gordon. Callaway was a risk worth taking in the draft. He just didn’t work out. Like many 4th round picks.

 

[Jack Brickman]

He signed with us, for a measly one-year, $1 million, to just get back into the NFL and to be close to home while he rehabbed his image. I'd say Berry re-signing him to a cheap deal this year is far more impressive.

It shows one of Dorsey's philosophies--that he's willing to always take the talent, regardless of off the field issues.

If you want to put Hunt in the win column, then you're also going to have to accept the headaches. I don't need more Callaway, Josh Gordon, etc's on this team.

Yup, at the end of the day I don't think a few scouting wins are worth all the bad things that come with Dorsey. The arrogance. The refusal to listen to people smarter than him. Always angling for more organizational power to the detriment of the team and front office unity. Hiring a coach who clearly wasn't the right guy for the job because he knew he'd be loyal. Trying to keep that coach when it was blindingly obvious he wasn't the guy. Gutting the o-line and thus setting up our first overall pick potential future franchise QB to develop tons of bad habits that we're still breaking a year and a half later.

Dorsey might be good at talent evaluation. He's had some big hits, especially early in the draft. But he's had some big misses too, and past the first couple of rounds he has virtually zero success as far as Browns draft picks go. Sure, hitting on first round picks seems like an amazing, unparalleled ability to us Browns fans, but Berry didn't seem to have any problem hitting on his first round one pick, so maybe it's not as hard as our team has made it look historically. Regardless, at the end of the day, Dorsey isn't worth the headache he creates behind the scenes.

We don't have enough evidence yet to call Berry a definitively good GM, but he's clearly done a lot of good in a short time. He rebuilt the offensive line, kept Hunt on a team-friendly deal, re-signed Garrett shortly before Bosa re-set the bar for EDGE contracts, nailed the Wills pick, seemingly hit on a couple of later round picks in DPJ and Bryant (I know he's had two bad fumbles but he's also been a good blocker and delivered us a huge game when Hooper was out), and is overseeing the first Cleveland football team with a winning record in thirteen years. Yeah, Stefanski and his coaching staff deserve a huge amount of credit for that too, but Berry may not have came back here without Stefanski at head coach.

 

[Los216]

Would love to see him go to Detroit and turn that place into something respectful.

I miss the Great Lakes classic. I wish The Browns and Lions could play each other every season.

 

[Vee-Rex]

So is the question about Dorsey being good at talent evaluation? I mean, I think he's pretty good. As Browns fans we can easily compare him to the numerous GMs we've had before.

I do think that as an ~overall~ GM, Dorsey is worse than we gave him credit for. Too many shortcomings that sort of taint his ability to evaluate talent. But I don't think it's fair of any of us, given Dorsey's tenure both here and KC, to suggest that he wasn't good at evaluating talent.

 

[Jack Brickman]

So is the question about Dorsey being good at talent evaluation? I mean, I think he's pretty good. As Browns fans we can easily compare him to the numerous GMs we've had before.

I do think that as an ~overall~ GM, Dorsey is worse than we gave him credit for. Too many shortcomings that sort of taint his ability to evaluate talent. But I don't think it's fair of any of us, given Dorsey's tenure both here and KC, to suggest that he wasn't good at evaluating talent.

I mean, certainly better than most of the GMs we've had since the return.

But that's also not saying a whole hell of a lot. You could probably throw darts at a draft board and do a better job than this team has since 1999.