Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

[guitarguy]

What a strange beast Okoro is. It's hard to dislike him as a person (hard worker, tencious), but he really does seem to have some allergic reaction to stats, ha. I can't think of anyone who showed so little stats.

Would like to see him moving more on O and getting open for easier shots/dunks. Doesn't ever make sense to me having him standing around the 3 point line. He really can be a menace on defense though, he's pretty fun to watch on that side of the floor.

 

[daytripper]

Preface this by saying it's probably way too early to say but he may be on the Tony Allen career trajectory. Allen was about the same size and played 14 years on some really good Celtic and Grizz teams but his career averages were not eye popping at 8 pts/3.5 rebounds.

Okoro is basically an energy player that is going to give his team good defense against opposing guards. Right now he, Rubio, and Allen seem to be JBB's security blankets to close out games. It might not look pretty offensively but those 3 will play tough defense.

You would hope to get a guy with higher upside with the 5th pick but it is what it is..

 

[Cavatt]

Im not sure what to say. Maybe he will just never have the stats. I don't really care. We saw what his defense did last night and he was out there to close the game for a reason.

It isn't just Mobley' defense, it isn't just Allen's defense. When Okoro, Allen and Mobley are out there the other team has a really hard time scoring.

Okoro needs to shoot another 3 per game and he should never not take a smaller guy to rim if there is no one behind him, but I love the way he is playing.

I just want him to attack when a sg or pg is on him. He declined doing that multiple times last night.

That steal and near score where he got hurt last night was amazing. Needs to clean up his footwork and he will get one of those a game.

We will need the most patience for him out of any of our young guys offensively. That's all.

 

[ajs1028]

What a strange beast Okoro is. It's hard to dislike him as a person (hard worker, tencious), but he really does seem to have some allergic reaction to stats, ha. I can't think of anyone who showed so little stats.

Would like to see him moving more on O and getting open for easier shots/dunks. Doesn't ever make sense to me having him standing around the 3 point line. He really can be a menace on defense though, he's pretty fun to watch on that side of the floor.

It absolutely makes no sense for him to stand at the 3 point line. He refuses to shoot open shots. If he can have a better handle, he could be the Cavs poor man version of Ben Simmons.

 

[Dr No]

Preface this by saying it's probably way too early to say but he may be on the Tony Allen career trajectory. Allen was about the same size and played 14 years on some really good Celtic and Grizz teams but his career averages were not eye popping at 8 pts/3.5 rebounds.

Okoro is basically an energy player that is going to give his team good defense against opposing guards. Right now he, Rubio, and Allen seem to be JBB's security blankets to close out games. It might not look pretty offensively but those 3 will play tough defense.

You would hope to get a guy with higher upside with the 5th pick but it is what it is..

Tony Allen was an absolute dog (in a good way). Although he never developed a shot, we was a reliable ball handler and could get to the rim. And he was a game changer on d. He was one of the few I’ve ever watched who could take great players out of their game. He was Patrick Beverly with size and length. I’d be thrilled if Okoro became prime Tony Allen. With Allen and Mobley, we’d have a championship level defense.

 

[Anglefan]

I mean sure he’s made some winning plays here and there, but in 4 games he hasn’t posted more than 4 rebounds once, he hasn’t broken the 3 assists mark, and he hasn’t reached double figures in scoring.

How low are the expectations for our number 5 pick? I would hope for a little more than just a gritty play a few times a game.

Our expectations are that he's 20 years old and he has upside.

 

[weepinwillow]

I love how he plays. He doesn't force anything (and I mean anything) but not in a Ben Simmons way, more in just a "oh there's the help, that means X is open" way, and you can see that he knows he has help behind him now, so his on-ball defense has become more aggressive than last season too.
Moving the ball quickly and decisively in an offense makes other guys better too. And the ability to make those decisions quickly without turning it over is a skillset that is not rated high enough, if I'm reading this board correctly. If Collin had it, he'd be in-line for a Trae Young max contract.
Not worried about points, or rebounds, or steals. You've got literally 7-8 guys ahead of him in the offense who eat up offensive possessions, he's normally playing with at least 2 7-footers if not 3 and is often times the defender on the ball when the shot is going up by virtue of who he's guarding.

 

[Fish Monger]

I love how he plays. He doesn't force anything (and I mean anything) but not in a Ben Simmons way, more in just a "oh there's the help, that means X is open" way, and you can see that he knows he has help behind him now, so his on-ball defense has become more aggressive than last season too.
Moving the ball quickly and decisively in an offense makes other guys better too. And the ability to make those decisions quickly without turning it over is a skillset that is not rated high enough, if I'm reading this board correctly. If Collin had it, he'd be in-line for a Trae Young max contract.
Not worried about points, or rebounds, or steals. You've got literally 7-8 guys ahead of him in the offense who eat up offensive possessions, he's normally playing with at least 2 7-footers if not 3 and is often times the defender on the ball when the shot is going up by virtue of who he's guarding.

Agreed all the way around. It's hard to have this conversation with stat line watchers. Players like Okoro are what make mediocre teams good teams, and good teams very good teams.

You aren't the only one who loves what he brings. ALL ABOARD!

 

[2 For The Brew]

It absolutely makes no sense for him to stand at the 3 point line. He refuses to shoot open shots. If he can have a better handle, he could be the Cavs poor man version of Ben Simmons.

Okoro shot 214 threes last year and five this year.

Ben has made 5 threes in his entire four year career, and his 0-11 his rookie year is the most three point shots he’s attempted in any one year.

I don’t recall Okoro ever passing up a dunk either.

As far as willingness to shoot is concerned Simmons is the WOAT and it‘s not close.

 

[foucault87]

Does Okoro not having counting stats matter? If his longterm on floor impact is positive than I could care less if he averaged 0 pts, 0 rbds, 0 asts per game. The boxscore numbers are correlated with winning but not necessarily. I think Okoro is in the vein of someone liek Delly who had a massive impact on winning without flashy or even good numbers.

 

[avs2000]

I love how he plays. He doesn't force anything (and I mean anything) but not in a Ben Simmons way, more in just a "oh there's the help, that means X is open" way, and you can see that he knows he has help behind him now, so his on-ball defense has become more aggressive than last season too.
Moving the ball quickly and decisively in an offense makes other guys better too. And the ability to make those decisions quickly without turning it over is a skillset that is not rated high enough, if I'm reading this board correctly. If Collin had it, he'd be in-line for a Trae Young max contract.
Not worried about points, or rebounds, or steals. You've got literally 7-8 guys ahead of him in the offense who eat up offensive possessions, he's normally playing with at least 2 7-footers if not 3 and is often times the defender on the ball when the shot is going up by virtue of who he's guarding.

Several things with Okoro
His defense is elite
He plays hard
He can finish and shoot the occasional 3
He is 20 years old !

 

[ajs1028]

Okoro shot 214 threes last year and five this year.

Ben has made 5 threes in his entire four year career, and his 0-11 his rookie year is the most three point shots he’s attempted in any one year.

I don’t recall Okoro ever passing up a dunk either.

As far as willingness to shoot is concerned Simmons is the WOAT and it‘s not close.

He passes up so many open looks. He just isn't worth where he was selected. One person compared him to michael kidd-gilchrest on this board. Fair comparison. He wouldn't play on some rosters

 

[I'mWithDan]

His defense is elite

He didn't receive a single vote for All-Defensive last season.

Lets set all the stats aside if we want to.......not getting a single vote for a player who is elite?

Who thinks this is a remotely possible outcome if we are to believe his defensive ability is what so many say it is?

I'm not saying he's a bad defender......his defensive skill is just largely overblown. He's an above average to good defender who can't do much else (so far).

 

[weepinwillow]

He passes up so many open looks. He just isn't worth where he was selected. One person compared him to michael kidd-gilchrest on this board. Fair comparison. He wouldn't play on some rosters

19 year olds with top level athletic ability and high level hoops IQ who can already guard 3 positions at a high level are going to get drafted high in any draft. As should be noted by the guy drafted 1 pick ahead of Okoro (and by some accounts had we been #4 overall they'd have chosen Patrick Williams too), who isn't exactly leaps and bounds beyond where Okoro is, and the eye test says Okoro looks like a more reliable man-defender and sees the floor better, but Patrick has a better physical profile, a more ready jumper and a year younger:

Lets set all the stats aside if we want to.......not getting a single vote for a player who is elite?

Elite is probably hyperbolic. But there are only 10 spots in total for all defensive 1st and 2nd team, and then only so many for G/F's. Elite among 19-22 year old NBA players? I might be able to say yes to that. Projects as an elite defender? I could get behind that statement. Did make all rookie 2nd team in large part due to his defensive performance.

Being able to defer your offense on a team that so far hasn't had any issues scoring this year is not really a deficiency. If you are doing the right things in the offense and the offense is scoring w/o you forcing shots, the complaints seem lame to me. The complaint that he was drafted too high because he isn't scoring is lame too for reasons mentioned above (19 year old etc..).

 

[I'mWithDan]

Elite is probably hyperbolic. But there are only 10 spots in total for all defensive 1st and 2nd team, and then only so many for G/F's. Elite among 19-22 year old NBA players? I might be able to say yes to that. Projects as an elite defender? I could get behind that statement. Did make all rookie 2nd team in large part due to his defensive performance.

Being able to defer your offense on a team that so far hasn't had any issues scoring this year is not really a deficiency. If you are doing the right things in the offense and the offense is scoring w/o you forcing shots, the complaints seem lame to me. The complaint that he was drafted too high because he isn't scoring is lame too for reasons mentioned above (19 year old etc..).

Sure, 10 spots......but 39 players got at least 1 vote. That is all I was pointing out. The notion a player could be elite at something and then not get a single vot relative to the size of the voting pool.

Generally, is it your view that youth inhibits defensive production? Just as a concept moving forward?

I think there is a good argument for offensive production lagging in your teens, or 20 year......but a lot of young guys make All-Defensive teams right out of the gate.

So I'm fine giving Isaac more time but his ascension as a defensive player, relative to the league, should probably be pretty quick if his other development continues to plateau. I guess that is all I would leave it as.