Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

[weepinwillow]

Okoro is so deep in his head on his jumper that you can't be sure how he gets out.

Frustrating, because all he needs is a passable jumper (I mean, like .333 from 3 and low .410's from 2) to be really solid in his role.

Anyway, I'm rooting for this kid to find it. He just does so many good things otherwise, go get the jumper working and sky's the limit.

 

[Smooth]

The frustrating part of his play is he just seemed like he may have been turning the corner, and then the recent three duds..

Last 3 games: 3-19 from the field, 3-13 from 3, 6 FTA, 10 REB, 0 BLK, 4, STL, 14 PTS, -4 +/-
3 games previous to that: 11-20 from field, 2-5 from 3, 3 FTA, 9 REB, 2 BLK, 1 STL, 27 PTS, +31

The large difference is obviously being efficiency from the field and from deep, which as we know, is what is likely to drive his role on this team moving forward.. Interesting enough he shot 20% on corner 3's this year compared to 36% last year..

To his credit, he's still been able to impact the game in other ways with his rebounding and steals the last 3 games even compared to his prior 3 game stretch..

With the Jazz game, Royce O'Neale really showed how much Okoro could open up the offense and the type of role Okoro would ideally play.. The frustrating part is we know Okoro has the talent and has shown it in flashes, but he's been far too inconsistent and is in his head and thinking instead of reading and reacting... I don't think he's a dumb player, his confidence just looks shot..

 

[Cavatt]

Guys I don't want to knock what Okoro did last year but posting some stats from one single game as proof that a guy isn't a bust just isn't it.

Every dude who plays in the NBA is capable of having a huge night.

Anyone remember the guy who went off against us in Utah all those years ago? I don't even remember his name. He was on a 10 day deal, scored a ton of points, hit the game winner.

That was a dude who became a journeyman from roster to roster on vet minimum deals.


Ya gotta step back from just looking at his very best moments (or his very worst) and look at the overall picture. And it's not very pretty atm.

That game was the highlight of course, but it wasn't just that. He had some 6 assist games and he just looked more comfortable and was better passing and cutting. We saw more flashes last year. He seems tentative everywhere. Maybe he is spooked I dunno.

Last year, it was like yeah he was missing shots, but he shot well at home and was making good quick decisions.

Is it weird he is just getting rid of the ball like Dean Wade right now? Windler is too.

 

[dms]

The frustrating part of his play is he just seemed like he may have been turning the corner, and then the recent three duds..

Last 3 games: 3-19 from the field, 3-13 from 3, 6 FTA, 10 REB, 0 BLK, 4, STL, 14 PTS, -4 +/-
3 games previous to that: 11-20 from field, 2-5 from 3, 3 FTA, 9 REB, 2 BLK, 1 STL, 27 PTS, +31


To his credit, he's still been able to impact the game in other ways with his rebounding and steals the last 3 games even compared to his prior 3 game stretch..

This is how low the bar has been set by the Okoro apologists. You are praising him for having 10 rebounds over 3 games!!! Ten rebounds and 4 steals in THREE GAMES is now impacting the game in other ways!!!
The way Okoro is really impacting the game goes way beyond personal stats. He is impacting it by allowing the opposition to totally ignore him and to place a defender in the lane as a last line of defense. Gobert has probably still not moved from his spot right on the edge of lane where he sat all night as Okoro sat in the corner uncovered. Garland found no openings all night against the Bucks as the lane was packed with defenders as Okoro was ignored. That's the reality of Okoro right now. I'm not saying he's a bust or to cut him, but at this point if they keep running him out there 30 minutes a night it's doing no one any favors.

 

[Sebastian]

 

[Heat Check]

This is how low the bar has been set by the Okoro apologists. You are praising him for having 10 rebounds over 3 games!!! Ten rebounds and 4 steals in THREE GAMES is now impacting the game in other ways!!!
The way Okoro is really impacting the game goes way beyond personal stats. He is impacting it by allowing the opposition to totally ignore him and to place a defender in the lane as a last line of defense. Gobert has probably still not moved from his spot right on the edge of lane where he sat all night as Okoro sat in the corner uncovered. Garland found no openings all night against the Bucks as the lane was packed with defenders as Okoro was ignored. That's the reality of Okoro right now. I'm not saying he's a bust or to cut him, but at this point if they keep running him out there 30 minutes a night it's doing no one any favors.

Pretty much.

The negative effect non-shooters have in the modern game is something people just don't pay enough attention to. IMO you should absolutely never draft non-shooters these days unless they have one or two truly ELITE other skills (see: Allen, Jarrett).

The fact that a guy can't shoot doesn't mean that he's automatically a great defender. I know that's the cliche, but it's time to throw it out. And "becoming" a shooter in the NBA is something that almost never happens. Sure there are exceptions, but do you really want to waste a 1st round pick to try your luck?

 

[Tizzle]

Sundiata Gaines. He was fire in 2k13

I was just about to post his name till I seen you already did.

 

[AllforOne]

This is how low the bar has been set by the Okoro apologists. You are praising him for having 10 rebounds over 3 games!!! Ten rebounds and 4 steals in THREE GAMES is now impacting the game in other ways!!!
The way Okoro is really impacting the game goes way beyond personal stats. He is impacting it by allowing the opposition to totally ignore him and to place a defender in the lane as a last line of defense. Gobert has probably still not moved from his spot right on the edge of lane where he sat all night as Okoro sat in the corner uncovered. Garland found no openings all night against the Bucks as the lane was packed with defenders as Okoro was ignored. That's the reality of Okoro right now. I'm not saying he's a bust or to cut him, but at this point if they keep running him out there 30 minutes a night it's doing no one any favors.

So what’s your suggestion? It’s easy to yell “BENCH OKORO!!!” It’s much tougher to propose a realistic alternative.

With Sexton out, the other SG options are Cedi, Windler, and Valentine. Cedi is the best alternative. But moving him into the starting role really hurts the bench. Also, Cedi has finally (after several seasons) found a role that he can do well in. I’m not sure taking him out of that role, and moving him back to a role where he’s been much worse, is a good idea.

Windler has been a disappointment obviously. He seems to have lost all confidence. JBB doesn’t trust him at all, and I can’t blame him.

Valentine is … well, he’s the 14th/15th man on the roster.

Until the Cavs can trade for somebody else (a possibility, but not a given; especially not until later this month, after many more players around the league become tradable), Okoro is it.

 

[Alec]

This is how low the bar has been set by the Okoro apologists. You are praising him for having 10 rebounds over 3 games!!! Ten rebounds and 4 steals in THREE GAMES is now impacting the game in other ways!!!
The way Okoro is really impacting the game goes way beyond personal stats. He is impacting it by allowing the opposition to totally ignore him and to place a defender in the lane as a last line of defense. Gobert has probably still not moved from his spot right on the edge of lane where he sat all night as Okoro sat in the corner uncovered. Garland found no openings all night against the Bucks as the lane was packed with defenders as Okoro was ignored. That's the reality of Okoro right now. I'm not saying he's a bust or to cut him, but at this point if they keep running him out there 30 minutes a night it's doing no one any favors.

Okoro went from 6’6 to 6’4 after being drafted.
Okoro went from “offensively raw” to a high school level dribbler and shooter after being drafted.
Okoro went from defensive stopper SF to good defender SG after being drafted.

Big whiff at this rate. And more proof that any information going around draft time is a lie.

 

[Kiddo]

Poor guy should've never been drafted at 5, just so many limitations. Not sure what our front office was thinking, clearly they weren't thinking.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

With the Jazz game, Royce O'Neale really showed how much Okoro could open up the offense and the type of role Okoro would ideally play.. The frustrating part is we know Okoro has the talent and has shown it in flashes, but he's been far too inconsistent and is in his head and thinking instead of reading and reacting... I don't think he's a dumb player, his confidence just looks shot..

I was thinking the same thing watching O'Neale. He just parked himself in the corner and let Donovan Mitchell and Bogdanovich et al run the offense. When those guys got doubled and the ball was kicked to him, he calmly knocked down the shot. He was 4-for-6 on 3's - all uncontested, and was a +11 in a game Utah won by one point.

That's exactly the type of player Okoro needs to be. This crap about him being a "playmaker" is ridiculous. He doesn't have the handles and he can't hit 3's off the dribble or from the center. But he can hit corner 3's when his mechanics are right. He needs to take 200 corner 3's a day at practice. Once he can hit them consistently defenders will have to take a run at him which will open up the pump fake and the baseline drive.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Until the Cavs can trade for somebody else (a possibility, but not a given; especially not until later this month, after many more players around the league become tradable), Okoro is it.

Lamar Stevens is pretty much an Okoro clone except he's a better shooter. For the season Stevens is shooting 37% overall and 37.5% on 3's. His last four games he's 4-for-8 from deep.

Okoro is at 35.9% and 21.8%. He's 12-for-55 on 3's.

Jrue Holiday said the Bucks' game plan was to take away Garland's 3-point shot and pack the paint. Which means they were giving up the 3's from Cedi, Love, Marky, Okoro, and Mobley. Love and Marky did fine from deep (9-for-20) but Okoro, Cedi, and Rubio combined to shoot 2-for-15 on 3's. That's what cost us the game in an 8-point loss. Just 33% from that group gives us 9 more points.

Not revealed in the stats are the times when Okoro has an open 3-point look but hesitates, then decides to attack the rim, resulting in a missed layup against a big or a pass out to the perimeter with the shot clock expiring and nobody open.

So am I suggesting Stevens start for Okoro? I'd continue to start Okoro for now but if he starts off 0-for-6 like he did against the Bucks I would bring in Stevens for the second shift and let him finish the game.

By the way, the Cavs are 10.4 points per 100 possessions BETTER when Stevens is on the floor; second highest on the team to Garland. The Cavs are 7.4 points WORSE per 100 possessions when Okoro is on the floor; second worst only to Sexton. That's a 19-point difference.

Breaking it down, the defense is actually about 3 points better with Okoro than Stevens, but the offense is almost 22 points better with Stevens. One big difference is the offensive rebound rate - the Cavs are 7.2% better with Stevens on the floor against 2.3% worse with Okoro. That puts Stevens in the 97th percentile among wings when it comes to improving the offensive rebounding. Okoro is in the 26th percentile. Stevens is a monster on the offensive glass. If he could also knock down 50% of his uncontested corner 3's he would not be a zero on the offensive end. So far this year Stevens is 4-for-9 from the corner, or 44.4%. Okoro is at 22%.

In fact, the Cavs 3-point shooting as a team improves a whopping 8.9% with Stevens, highest on the team and in the 99th percentile among NBA wings. For some reason when Stevens is on the floor the Cavs' 3-point shooting soars. Maybe he's in with Cedi a lot, who is shooting 43%. But that can't be the only reason.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Lamar Stevens is pretty much an Okoro clone except he's a better shooter. For the season Stevens is shooting 37% overall and 37.5% on 3's. His last four games he's 4-for-8 from deep.

Okoro is at 35.9% and 21.8%. He's 12-for-55 on 3's.

Jrue Holiday said the Bucks' game plan was to take away Garland's 3-point shot and pack the paint. Which means they were giving up the 3's from Cedi, Love, Marky, Okoro, and Mobley. Love and Marky did fine from deep (9-for-20) but Okoro, Cedi, and Rubio combined to shoot 2-for-15 on 3's. That's what cost us the game in an 8-point loss. Just 33% from that group gives us 9 more points.

Not revealed in the stats are the times when Okoro has an open 3-point look but hesitates, then decides to attack the rim, resulting in a missed layup against a big or a pass out to the perimeter with the shot clock expiring and nobody open.

So am I suggesting Stevens start for Okoro? I'd continue to start Okoro for now but if he starts off 0-for-6 like he did against the Bucks I would bring in Stevens for the second shift and let him finish the game.

By the way, the Cavs are 10.4 points per 100 possessions BETTER when Stevens is on the floor; second highest on the team to Garland. The Cavs are 7.4 points WORSE per 100 possessions when Okoro is on the floor; second worst only to Sexton. That's a 19-point difference.

Breaking it down, the defense is actually about 3 points better with Okoro than Stevens, but the offense is almost 22 points better with Stevens. One big difference is the offensive rebound rate - the Cavs are 7.2% better with Stevens on the floor against 2.3% worse with Okoro. That puts Stevens in the 97th percentile among wings when it comes to improving the offensive rebounding. Okoro is in the 26th percentile. Stevens is a monster on the offensive glass. If he could also knock down 50% of his uncontested corner 3's he would not be a zero on the offensive end. So far this year Stevens is 4-for-9 from the corner, or 44.4%. Okoro is at 22%.

In fact, the Cavs 3-point shooting as a team improves a whopping 8.9% with Stevens, highest on the team and in the 99th percentile among NBA wings. For some reason when Stevens is on the floor the Cavs' 3-point shooting soars. Maybe he's in with Cedi a lot, who is shooting 43%. But that can't be the only reason.

Tf... that's atrocious. Put this dude on the bench.

 

[dms]

Lamar Stevens is pretty much an Okoro clone except he's a better shooter. For the season Stevens is shooting 37% overall and 37.5% on 3's. His last four games he's 4-for-8 from deep.

Okoro is at 35.9% and 21.8%. He's 12-for-55 on 3's.

Jrue Holiday said the Bucks' game plan was to take away Garland's 3-point shot and pack the paint. Which means they were giving up the 3's from Cedi, Love, Marky, Okoro, and Mobley. Love and Marky did fine from deep (9-for-20) but Okoro, Cedi, and Rubio combined to shoot 2-for-15 on 3's. That's what cost us the game in an 8-point loss. Just 33% from that group gives us 9 more points.

Not revealed in the stats are the times when Okoro has an open 3-point look but hesitates, then decides to attack the rim, resulting in a missed layup against a big or a pass out to the perimeter with the shot clock expiring and nobody open.

So am I suggesting Stevens start for Okoro? I'd continue to start Okoro for now but if he starts off 0-for-6 like he did against the Bucks I would bring in Stevens for the second shift and let him finish the game.

By the way, the Cavs are 10.4 points per 100 possessions BETTER when Stevens is on the floor; second highest on the team to Garland. The Cavs are 7.4 points WORSE per 100 possessions when Okoro is on the floor; second worst only to Sexton. That's a 19-point difference.

Breaking it down, the defense is actually about 3 points better with Okoro than Stevens, but the offense is almost 22 points better with Stevens. One big difference is the offensive rebound rate - the Cavs are 7.2% better with Stevens on the floor against 2.3% worse with Okoro. That puts Stevens in the 97th percentile among wings when it comes to improving the offensive rebounding. Okoro is in the 26th percentile. Stevens is a monster on the offensive glass. If he could also knock down 50% of his uncontested corner 3's he would not be a zero on the offensive end. So far this year Stevens is 4-for-9 from the corner, or 44.4%. Okoro is at 22%.

In fact, the Cavs 3-point shooting as a team improves a whopping 8.9% with Stevens, highest on the team and in the 99th percentile among NBA wings. For some reason when Stevens is on the floor the Cavs' 3-point shooting soars. Maybe he's in with Cedi a lot, who is shooting 43%. But that can't be the only reason.

I was going to suggest Stevens earlier when called out with an if not Okoro then who question. Admittedly, Stevens isn't really a guard, but in truth neither is Okoro. The team shooting percentage thing is probably just an anomaly based on small sample size, but based on what we saw of Stevens last year he would be a much bigger presence under the glass and he couldn't possibly be any worse offensively.
I don't know if Stevens is the long term answer, I just know that Okoro is not the current answer. I realize they tried limiting his minutes some earlier this year by bringing him off the bench until Sexton went down, but even with no good options it's time to go to door number 2. Running Okoro out there for 30 minutes hurts the team and has to be damaging to Okoro's psyche.

 

[avs2000]

I was going to suggest Stevens earlier when called out with an if not Okoro then who question. Admittedly, Stevens isn't really a guard, but in truth neither is Okoro. The team shooting percentage thing is probably just an anomaly based on small sample size, but based on what we saw of Stevens last year he would be a much bigger presence under the glass and he couldn't possibly be any worse offensively.
I don't know if Stevens is the long term answer, I just know that Okoro is not the current answer. I realize they tried limiting his minutes some earlier this year by bringing him off the bench until Sexton went down, but even with no good options it's time to go to door number 2. Running Okoro out there for 30 minutes hurts the team and has to be damaging to Okoro's psyche.

I have been pro okoro but he is not getting better and forcing Cavs to go 4 on 5
Stephens gives you same defensive intensity with better shooting. I think I would start Lamar at this point Not much to lose. Not giving up on okoro but it is what it is right now