Isaac 3 & D Okoro - A Two Way Playing Basketball Savant

[Marcus]

Odd as this may be to believe, Okoro's minutes have actually been trending downward over the past six games, and he's not played more than 29 since the day before Thanksgiving (the Suns loss). Now, some of that you can attribute to the four game winning streak in which the Cavs won each game by double digits, but the regular rotation players all played pretty deep into those games due to the lack of NBA-caliber players at the end of the bench. In fact, in those games, he was the only starter to not crack the 30 minute mark (apart from Lauri in the Miami blowout, who played only 26 minutes that night).

Once he got yanked for Stevens against Milwaukee, he rode the pine the rest of the night, clocking in at 18 minutes.

Hopefully this is a sign that his leash is getting shorter. I understand he's still incredibly raw, but he has done very little to justify his starting position or the amount of minutes he's playing right now, and constantly playing 4-on-5 is not sustainable.

Ideally, if they're going to keep him up here (as opposed to sending him down to the Charge for a couple weeks), I'd like to see Stevens get some burn with the starters and let Okoro move to that ninth man role on the bench. Much less of a spotlight on him there, and he can still get 15-20 minutes a game. Stevens is still below average, but at this point he can at least provide the threat of a three point shot and defend. Until Okoro can start making teams get out and guard him on the perimeter, he should be coming off the bench.

 

[DirtyDan]

I think it is likely he looks better in practice and is freezing up in game. Defenders are making him uncomfortable.

I think JB is doing the right thing, but how long is the question. You can't just hope he develops forever. I really think confidence is his biggest issue. I want him to work on his ball handling more than his shot honestly. HE isn't using his first step to his advantage.

I view him as a rookie still, maybe you could call this a sophromore slump? Probably still going to pretty raw next season too. They will need to make a hard decision on how they want him to fit in this rotation or if they have the patience to involve him this season and beyond while he continues to develop. He's not a starter, but can be a useful rotation piece in the meantime.

There are clear red flags that I think will be hard for him to overcome: undersized for his position and poor finishing.

Then there's stuff that he can overcome with time and his strong work ethic: confidence, shooting, handle (going from atrocious to okay), and working on an inbetween game.

 

[Kouki]

Pretty much.

The negative effect non-shooters have in the modern game is something people just don't pay enough attention to. IMO you should absolutely never draft non-shooters these days unless they have one or two truly ELITE other skills (see: Allen, Jarrett).

The fact that a guy can't shoot doesn't mean that he's automatically a great defender. I know that's the cliche, but it's time to throw it out. And "becoming" a shooter in the NBA is something that almost never happens. Sure there are exceptions, but do you really want to waste a 1st round pick to try your luck?

Completely agree regarding the importance of shooting, and that thought that just because a guy is bad at offense means he is good at defense.

But is the bolded really true any more? Maybe it is just confirmation bias but it sure seems like a lot of players are developing shots. Sometimes it's just players who could very obviously shoot but were never given the green light (probably Brook Lopez), other times it's because players are focusing more on developing the shot given the trend.

3PT% has also been roughly consistent for a very long time now, like decades. But players are shooting a lot more of them. Generally as volume increases, % decreases as players are being less selective about their shot attempts. But we haven't seen that, thus I would conclude that overall players are getting better at shooting, and/or offenses are focusing more on generating more quality 3PT attempts.

And it's still a relatively recent trend, within the last 5 years even. So I would assume we are going to be seeing more players get more better at 3PT, as it seems like we have been seeing (again anecdotally).

 

[Kouki]

Ideally, if they're going to keep him up here (as opposed to sending him down to the Charge for a couple weeks), I'd like to see Stevens get some burn with the starters and let Okoro move to that ninth man role on the bench. Much less of a spotlight on him there, and he can still get 15-20 minutes a game.

The problem with this is that unfortunately I think he would continue to struggle and his confidence would be shot even more. His limitations aren't opposing defenses, his limitations are skill, and mental/confidence. I really think the only solution is locking him in a gym until he can be a 33% + 3PT shooter. And I don't think we should expect that to happen during one offseason, I don't think it's an impossibility. Just look at Cedi re-tooling his shot, last year he looked identical to Korver except for the fact that the ball wasn't going in the hoop very much.

Players don't get tested until the regular season starts. We always see "Player X completely changed his game over the offseason!" but that is all moot until you play against opponents under the lights. So you might see a skill improvement in practice but it wasn't actually improved enough, and habituated enough, to be viable in games.

Can't keep kicking the can down the road forever though. I would give him another offseason before we put a ceiling on him.

(and I do not AT ALL prescribe to "But he scored 32 points against the Suns!" nor "But look at what Jimmy Butler said about him!"...I'm just considering his reported work ethic, and passable skills at the college level)

We are also winning games "despite" him logging a lot of minutes, and no one expected us to be doing that this year. So I think there is some hyperbole in terms of his net impact on the court?

 

[Marcus]

The problem with this is that unfortunately I think he would continue to struggle and his confidence would be shot even more. His limitations aren't opposing defenses, his limitations are skill, and mental/confidence. I really think the only solution is locking him in a gym until he can be a 33% + 3PT shooter. And I don't think we should expect that to happen during one offseason, I don't think it's an impossibility. Just look at Cedi re-tooling his shot, last year he looked identical to Korver except for the fact that the ball wasn't going in the hoop very much.

Players don't get tested until the regular season starts. We always see "Player X completely changed his game over the offseason!" but that is all moot until you play against opponents under the lights. So you might see a skill improvement in practice but it wasn't actually improved enough, and habituated enough, to be viable in games.

Can't keep kicking the can down the road forever though. I would give him another offseason before we put a ceiling on him.

(and I do not AT ALL prescribe to "But he scored 32 points against the Suns!" nor "But look at what Jimmy Butler said about him!"...I'm just considering his reported work ethic, and passable skills at the college level)

We are also winning games "despite" him logging a lot of minutes, and no one expected us to be doing that this year. So I think there is some hyperbole in terms of his net impact on the court?

I think perhaps we might be looking at this a little differently. I can’t help but wonder if he’s in his own head right now - lofty draft status, starter on a professional team, and is just really struggling right now with fans calling for him to be benched/traded/demoted/etc.

I think succeeding under lower expectations would do much more for his confidence than continuing to throw him into situations where he is clearly not performing. The move doesn’t need to be permanent.

 

[Man Called X]

I think perhaps we might be looking at this a little differently. I can’t help but wonder if he’s in his own head right now - lofty draft status, starter on a professional team, and is just really struggling right now with fans calling for him to be benched/traded/demoted/etc.

I think succeeding under lower expectations would do much more for his confidence than continuing to throw him into situations where he is clearly not performing. The move doesn’t need to be permanent.

I don't have time for players that are exposed as frauds and play like they know it to be true. Weak minded simps have no place on a good team, case in point, Rodney Hood.

 

[Marcus]

I don't have time for players that are exposed as frauds and play like they know it to be true. Weak minded simps have no place on a good team, case in point, Rodney Hood.

I legit forgot that dude was even still in the league until the game the other night.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I don't have time for players that are exposed as frauds and play like they know it to be true. Weak minded simps have no place on a good team, case in point, Rodney Hood.

Your words cut like a machete.

You legit can put the man is a psych ward you douche!

 

[ajs1028]

I agree with you 100% I know he needs to develop but that’s why we got the g league.

I view him as a rookie still, maybe you could call this a sophromore slump? Probably still going to pretty raw next season too. They will need to make a hard decision on how they want him to fit in this rotation or if they have the patience to involve him this season and beyond while he continues to develop. He's not a starter, but can be a useful rotation piece in the meantime.

There are clear red flags that I think will be hard for him to overcome: undersized for his position and poor finishing.

Then there's stuff that he can overcome with time and his strong work ethic: confidence, shooting, handle (going from atrocious to okay), and working on an inbetween game.

I don't see it getting much better. I don't think anyone would part with a second round pick for him at this point.

 

[ajs1028]

The problem with this is that unfortunately I think he would continue to struggle and his confidence would be shot even more. His limitations aren't opposing defenses, his limitations are skill, and mental/confidence. I really think the only solution is locking him in a gym until he can be a 33% + 3PT shooter. And I don't think we should expect that to happen during one offseason, I don't think it's an impossibility. Just look at Cedi re-tooling his shot, last year he looked identical to Korver except for the fact that the ball wasn't going in the hoop very much.

Players don't get tested until the regular season starts. We always see "Player X completely changed his game over the offseason!" but that is all moot until you play against opponents under the lights. So you might see a skill improvement in practice but it wasn't actually improved enough, and habituated enough, to be viable in games.

Can't keep kicking the can down the road forever though. I would give him another offseason before we put a ceiling on him.

(and I do not AT ALL prescribe to "But he scored 32 points against the Suns!" nor "But look at what Jimmy Butler said about him!"...I'm just considering his reported work ethic, and passable skills at the college level)

We are also winning games "despite" him logging a lot of minutes, and no one expected us to be doing that this year. So I think there is some hyperbole in terms of his net impact on the court?

Also, some posters on here have compared him to early versions of Butler, Brown, and even Leonard at one point. I am hoping he can get to a Cody Martin or Caleb Martin status.

 

[Man Called X]

Your words cut like a machete.

You legit can put the man is a psych ward you douche!

If he's weak minded enough to be upset about little ol X's comments on RCF, he's got bigger problems than his lack of skills.

 

[dms]

I think it is likely he looks better in practice and is freezing up in game. Defenders are making him uncomfortable.

"Defenders are making him uncomfortable."??????????

What??????? There is seldom a defender within 6 feet of Okoro, and they are making him uncomfortable??????? Perhaps you are saying he misses human contact because he's left so alone he could be getting lonely.

I could live with his bad offense if at least the defenses paid attention to him, but they don't and it's hurting our offense. It's pretty clear that NBA defenses are pretty comfortable letting Okoro take as many uncontested shots as he wants.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

I don’t know how people can say it’s purely a confidence thing when he doesn’t look like he can dribble a ball better than the average center. I can also count on one hand how many passes he’s made that weren’t right back out to the wing on the same side of the court he’s on after dribbling into the defense and stopping in the paint. And the shots aren’t just missing; they’re bricking wide left or right and totally missing the rim. It’s clearly also a lack of ability at this point. I think relative to how small he is and his lack of freak athleticism, he’s one of the most unskilled players I’ve ever seen.

The best comparison of Okoro to me is like if you shrunk Tristan Thompson down to 6’5 and asked him to play on the wing.

 

[DirtyDan]

I don't see it getting much better. I don't think anyone would part with a second round pick for him at this point.

Most teams would trade a second round pick to take a flier on him just because he was a former top 5 selection and has some physical/character intangibles.

Okoro sucks right now, but it's not impossible for him to improve his game with time. As an example, Garland was one of the worst players getting starter minutes in his rookie year and was still underwhelming last year. Now, with the overall progress in his game and the influx of talent on the roster, he looks like one of the top point guards in the east.

People become way too quick to write young players off. The Cavs are reworking his whole jump shot from scratch, playing him more minutes than he can actually handle, and still have him on his rookie deal. Also he's only played like 85 games in his career. Situation will play itself out in time.

 

[Cavatt]

Look, he's by far the rawest rookie we have drafted. Right now it looks pretty bad on offense.

I really like Okoro, I do believe in him as a defender. He has routinely held very good players to bad shooting nights. I was his main proponent in the draft thread, but I was never thinking to start him this year. I always thought he should be brought off the bench if Sexton or Garland is struggling or a backcourt opponent was simply too big.

Most of us thought we were heading back into the lottery this year and he would have another low pressure season to develop alongside a baby Giraffe who was wobbley.

Well our baby Giraffe grew up faster than we thought and we are ahead of our timeline. We lost one of our main shot creators, even if he creates mostly for himself.

Okoro, Mobley, Allen are one of the best defensive Trios in the league. You'll notice that they did a good job on Milwaukee defensively, but when oen of them was out they consistently went on runs. Together those 3 have a defensive rating in the 80's, let me repeat that, in the 80's and the net rating is still positive.

As I see it they have a couple of options. Trial by fire, which seemed to be effective for Okoro last season. We have seen him hesitant before. HE was like that half the season, but he looked like a different guy later in the season. Hesitancy is a killer in the NBA. If you aren't decisive you get cooked. IMO Okoro and Windler have exactly the same problem and they aren't taking good looks and are looking for perfect looks.

In his last dozen games last year he finished well, scored double digits consistently, and played great D. IF we can get that guy back by battling through this period where he doesn't trust his shot, that is great. Personally, I think we need a guy who can sink a 3 pt shot at the 2, and I have thought that ever since Mobley replaced Love in the SL. We really need Windler or Cedi to take that spot.

He's 6 months older than Mobley. He is still a kid. He's the rawest of the lottery picks and he is the only one to score 32 as a rook. He struggling to find his offense and similar to Sexton I am not surprised a slasher is having a hard time getting looks at the rim when you have 3 7 footers and only one spacer on the floor. Is it a surprise that he looked great with Dwade, Love, and Sexton out there? I don't think so.