John-Blair Bickerstaff: Currently The 6th Longest Tenured Head Coach

[CavsKermit]

All good and you don’t have to quantify our mutual respect to disagree. I love mixing it up and welcome other opinions. Makes me a better leader, I think.

Have we seen any Brown and Mobley lineups?

In Dallas and Atlanta, he got lost on an island in high PNR with who else on the floor?

To my recollection, we haven’t seen him in lineups with Mobley yet so we don’t know how well he might recover if he gets pulled away from the basket and into space but we KNOW Mobley as a weak side defender covers a lot of warts when he is not asked to be the only line of defense between the opposition and the basket.

I would say damned if we haven’t tried yet in the case of Brown/Mobley/Markk.

We know Cedi and Rondo will gamble passing lanes aggressively and compromise, Okoro and Stevens will play tough man defense and are smart perimeter team defenders, Markk and Love are toughness deficient but Love has smart positional defensive awareness and Markk can wall/contest with his length if he can stay in front of who he’s guarding and Levert is showing he has a deceptive defensive want to with his plus length for smaller guards…

A lot of tools in our shed to be used, not all being used optimally if at all.

I look forward to debating the roster building vs rotation/schematics with you this summer because I think Koby has done a masterful job on that part tjis year, all things considered

Are we really at the point where people are criticizing JBB for not playing a center on a 20-day contract in a play-in game against a roster that had a Drummond/Claxton rotation, Durant at forward, and Kyrie?

I didn't bother to address this the yesterday, but Brown got sonned in Charlotte by Mo friggin Bamba. It's a discussion board and counterfactuals are an inevitable result, but this goes well beyond best case scenario in terms of likely outcomes of what would've happened if Brown was on the floor.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Are we really at the point where I keep moving the goal posts for JBB so no criticism is warranted despite my overreliance to use play by play printouts and +/- ?

Yes

 

[CavsKermit]

Yes

Setting aside the propriety of literally changing what I wrote, people are acting like Bickerstaff is the first coach to yank a role player in an elimination game because the unit played like garbage with him in it, and played better without him in it.

Obviously, +/- in a one game sample size has it's limitations, but in the extreme, like -12 in 7 minutes, it might just provide some insight as to why a player got yanked and not put back in that game. If Ty Lue can do it to Kyrie Irving against the Pacers, maybe people should slow their roll on Bickerstaff doing it with Lamar Stevens.

 

[nolookpass]

Setting aside the propriety of literally changing what I wrote, people are acting like Bickerstaff is the first coach to yank a role player in an elimination game because the unit played like garbage with him in it, and played better without him in it.

Obviously, +/- in a one game sample size has it's limitations, but in the extreme, like -12 in 7 minutes, it might just provide some insight as to why a player got yanked and not put back in that game. If Ty Lue can do it to Kyrie Irving against the Pacers, maybe people should slow their roll on Bickerstaff doing it with Lamar Stevens.

But context matters no? If we acknowledge the limitations of +/- and look at how he played, then Stevens was aggressive on offense and was at the right spot on defense, plus he played well vs KD in the previous game. Stevens wasn’t the problem in his -12.

If I’m on the court with 4 LeBrons and we go up by 10, it doesn’t mean I was amazing and contributed directly to my +10.

 

[cavsfever]

So that is a good point, we've never seen it. My personal feeling is that Brown would have been a liability on the defensive end no matter what. Say what you want about Lauri but he's got pretty good feet for a big and does a decent job in space (aside from falling asleep off the ball sometimes). If Brown is in the game Kyrie and KD were going to attack him relentlessly off of the high PNRs and I don't think he would have given us back enough offensively to offset the liability on the boards. He's also useless outside of 5 feet on offense so our already poor spacing would be completely non-existent. If anything, I think the move would have been to start Love and match him to Drummond since Drummond's scoring isn't scaring anyone and hopefully Love could control the boards with Mobley roaming off of Brown as a helper. Again, I get why they didn't- aside from keeping rotations consistent and all of that, Love is a massive defensive liability in space.

I could write an essay on this, but the short part is that I'm scared Koby nailed all of the important stuff (Garland & Mobley picks, Allen trade were all unquestioned home runs) and is now blowing assets on players that aren't a part of the long term solution of a championship core. In the last year alone we've traded away Nance, a 1st, and a 2nd to pay Markkanen and LeVert about $35 mill a year, and I'm not sure either will be a part of a contending Cavs team. And I say that as being a bit pleasantly surprised with LeVert as a starter. I was well against it for injuries, lack of efficiency, etc but I've been impressed with his defense and there are flashes as a secondary playmaker. My only concern is that the general feeling of "you know, I like what he did out there but he just has to play better and hit more shots" is probably how every previous team of his has felt. Markkanen... still not sure he's even a guy who you can count on in a playoff series; I know he's overstretched in his current role.

And the Okoro pick was fundamentally flawed and as he is right now doesn't mesh with the roster at all. A lot of us were ok-to-liking the pick, but he is 2 inches shorter than we all believed and a non-shooting 2 guard just doesn't work in the league. I assume that the Cavs actually had his measurements before drafting him. It specially doesn't work when you play 2 big lineups- 1-3 have to be dynamic spacers so it doesn't get too mucked up around them. Knowing what I know of Koby's process, it was probably a bet on his makeup- every single Cavs high draft pick under Koby has that no ego, gym rat makeup that has led them to improve more than just about everyone thought they would. He's just got so far to go and I don't like his chances of ever getting to a high level player- I think becoming useful is still well within reach but he's got to show it by next year.

We also haven't even used any assets on big, switchable 3s- this archetype more than any other unlocks the ability to play varied lineups and go small/big depending on what you need. We HAVE to play big because we lack the personnel to put together small lineups that still work.

Great analysis. Was watching Brandon Ingram last night and thinking about how much an offensively skilled three who is big enough to switch on D would unlock the potential in this team. When you don’t have that guy, doubling down with a no-offense SG like Okoro is kind of a disaster

 

[Heat Check]

If I’m on the court with 4 LeBrons and we go up by 10, it doesn’t mean I was amazing and contributed directly to my +10.

No, it doesn't prove that you contributed directly. But neither does it imply that you had no role in the success of that lineup, 4 Brons and all.

A lineup is a unit and players don't function in a vacuum. Of course it's possible to play good basketball individually and still end up in the minus (as well as the other way around), but that's not how it's likely to go.

 

[nolookpass]

No, it doesn't prove that you contributed directly. But neither does it imply that you had no role in the success of that lineup, 4 Brons and all.

A lineup is a unit and players don't function in a vacuum. Of course it's possible to play good basketball individually and still end up in the minus (as well as the other way around), but that's not how it's likely to go.

Of course it doesn’t prove it, but if we look at the context that I’m nowhere close to being an NBA caliber player, we can very safely assume that I likely had no role in the success of that lineup.

All I’m saying is Stevens has a specific role on this team, and he was doing his role well. Combining with the fact that he played well against KD the previous game, the -12 doesn’t accurately capture his contribution on the court, nor does it warrant him playing less than Okoro and Cedi.

 

[foucault87]

Of course it doesn’t prove it, but if we look at the context that I’m nowhere close to being an NBA caliber player, we can very safely assume that I likely had no role in the success of that lineup.

Dont sell yourself short. I believe in you!

 

[CavsKermit]

Of course it doesn’t prove it, but if we look at the context that I’m nowhere close to being an NBA caliber player, we can very safely assume that I likely had no role in the success of that lineup.

All I’m saying is Stevens has a specific role on this team, and he was doing his role well. Combining with the fact that he played well against KD the previous game, the -12 doesn’t accurately capture his contribution on the court, nor does it warrant him playing less than Okoro and Cedi.

Stevens was out there with two different groups of players both of whom played better without him in the game, in that game, which happened to be an elimination game. Durant happened to play better, practically cheat mode, against both units when Stevens was in with them. Coaches don't have the luxury of larger sample sizes in postseason elimination games. If it's not working, it's not working.

It's the exact same people complaining, all season long, that Bickerstaff doesn't make adjustment, who are now insisting that he should've left the 8th or 9th player in the rotation back in after going -12 in 7 minutes. They're imagining a counterfactual, however unlikely, where Stevens plays twice that amount and gets himself to net 0 on the game. Of course, that's not the only possible outcome of such a counterfactual. There's another where Stevens is -24 in 14 minutes and Durant just feasts. If that outcome occurs, the same folks are back on the why can't Bickerstaff make adjustments train.

If people have convinced themselves that Lamar Stevens guarding Durant is going to consistently produce good results, then I really don't know what to say other than they're massively overrating him.

 

[buzzdog]

Stevens was out there with two different groups of players both of whom played better without him in the game, in that game - which happened to be an elimination game. Durant happened to play better, practically cheat mode, against both units when Stevens was in with them. Coaches don't have the luxury of larger sample sizes in postseason elimination games. If it's not working, it's not working.

It's the exact same people complaining, all season long, that Bickerstaff doesn't make adjustment, who are now insisting that he should've left the 8th or 9th player in the rotation in after going -12 in 7 minutes. They're imagining a counterfactual, however unlikely, where Stevens plays twice that amount and gets himself to net 0 on the game. Of course, that's not the only possible outcome of such a counterfactual. There's another where Stevens is -24 in 14 minutes and Durant just feasts. If that outcome occurs, the same folks are back on the why can't Bickerstaff make adjustments train.

If people have convinced themselves that Lamar Stevens guarding Durant is going to consistently produce good results, then I really don't know what to say other than they're massively overrating him.

I don't think anyone EVER said that. What everyone including myself has said is, Stevens is the best player available on our roster other than Mobley to try to slow KD down a little. Stevens can get physical and Stevens is aggressive, and that can at least bother KD. It happened in the loss the last week of the regular season. When Stevens guarded KD the Nets started running KD off screens to get Stevens off him, and that's all KD needed.

Stevens moves better than Lauri, he's taller than Okoro, more physical than LeVert, and Stevens is fundamentally sound in the way he plays defense. If you don't see those things then I don't trust your opinion. You say others over-rate Stevens on defense, have you considered that maybe you underrate him? It sure looks that way to me.

And to be sure Evan can do a better job. But we only have one Evan Mobley and putting him on KD hurt our defense in other areas. If we had Allen to fill the paint protector role than I would say yes, match Mobley up on KD with Stevens as the second option.

 

[cavsfever]

Of course it doesn’t prove it, but if we look at the context that I’m nowhere close to being an NBA caliber player, we can very safely assume that I likely had no role in the success of that lineup.

Daydreaming now about whether a lineup of four Lebrons and me (middle-aged, somewhat overweight, extremely slow, 3 inch vertical) could win the NBA championship. Not sure I could physically survive on the court. Most of my efforts would be devoted to finding a safe place to hide during offensive possessions, kind of like Okoro, and on defense I would probably get broken in half by my first pick. Opponents could also cripple our offensive effectiveness by fouling me every time down the court -- despite years of practice, I shoot at most 50% from the free throw line, and that is in a totally silent gym.

 

[CavsKermit]

I don't think anyone EVER said that. What everyone including myself has said is, Stevens is the best player available on our roster other than Mobley to try to slow KD down a little. Stevens can get physical and Stevens is aggressive, and that can at least bother KD. It happened in the loss the last week of the regular season. When Stevens guarded KD the Nets started running KD off screens to get Stevens off him, and that's all KD needed.

Stevens moves better than Lauri, he's taller than Okoro, more physical than LeVert, and Stevens is fundamentally sound in the way he plays defense. If you don't see those things then I don't trust your opinion. You say others over-rate Stevens on defense, have you considered that maybe you underrate him? It sure looks that way to me.

And to be sure Evan can do a better job. But we only have one Evan Mobley and putting him on KD hurt our defense in other areas. If we had Allen to fill the paint protector role than I would say yes, match Mobley up on KD with Stevens as the second option.

Yes, Stevens is physical which is why he's better when the officials are allowing the game to be played physically. Better still if the opposing team isn't already in the bonus. But if the officials aren't allowing for that, the other team is in the bonus, and Durant's getting superstar treatment from the officials, then four of the six points Durant ends up scoring in those seven minutes are at the line.

I actually think that Stevens is a pretty bad PNR defender. He can't guard quicker, smaller players, he's not good in the switch on those PNRs, so he tries to avoid switching, and it causes problems. He's a good on the ball against the more physical threes and fours. But a guy like Durant can shoot over him, or go around him, or put him in a PNR with a guard, and pretty much get what he wants if he's focused.

Now add in the fact he gave us nothing on the glass in a game where we were outrebounded, and outrebounded badly without Love, and I don't see leaving him on the bench as even a tiny bit controversial.

 

[BigZ94]

I challenge people who are defending JBB to go on Memphis and Houston forums during his tenures in both franchises. They literally have the same complaints.. bad rotations, terrible inbound plays, getting killed out of timeouts, playing favorites and garbage offense.

With the Rockets he went 37-34 with a stacked roster and prime James Harden. D’Antoni took that same team the next season to 55 wins with almost an identical roster.

Then with the Grizzlies also fired him after a pretty disappointing season (33 wins with Gasol, Conley Randolf and Tony Allen). Sure they were on the older end but still definitely under preformed. Highly doubt Grizzlies would be having the acsension they are currently having with JBB at the Helm.

All there’s gripes posters are having with JBB aren’t new, same stuff fans have been complaining about since 2015. He hasn’t shown any improvement in these areas.

There is only room for 30 coaches in the NBA, nobody is going to convince me JBB is a too 30 coach in the world, his track record doesn’t prove it either.

I’m curious what do people see in him? What about his game plan provides such exemption from criticism? All I see is freelancing ISO ball and pick and rolls with Garland and Allen while everybody else stands around and watches, been like that all season. Other teams even the Nets with the star power of Kyrie and KD run an offense, there’s movement, offball screens and cuts.

The 3 tower idea was great I’ll give him that, but we also got a lot of wins against teams depleted by covid and injuries, our record is definitely inflated, especially after Rubio went down. I think the criticisms he’s receiving here are very much well warranted

 

[Derek]

I challenge people who are defending JBB to go on Memphis and Houston forums during his tenures in both franchises. They literally have the same complaints.. bad rotations, terrible inbound plays, getting killed out of timeouts, playing favorites and garbage offense.

With the Rockets he went 37-34 with a stacked roster and prime James Harden. D’Antoni took that same team the next season to 55 wins with almost an identical roster.

Then with the Grizzlies also fired him after a pretty disappointing season (33 wins with Gasol, Conley Randolf and Tony Allen). Sure they were on the older end but still definitely under preformed. Highly doubt Grizzlies would be having the acsension they are currently having with JBB at the Helm.

All there’s gripes posters are having with JBB aren’t new, same stuff fans have been complaining about since 2015. He hasn’t shown any improvement in these areas.

There is only room for 30 coaches in the NBA, nobody is going to convince me JBB is a too 30 coach in the world, his track record doesn’t prove it either.

I’m curious what do people see in him? What about his game plan provides such exemption from criticism? All I see is freelancing ISO ball and pick and rolls with Garland and Allen while everybody else stands around and watches, been like that all season. Other teams even the Nets with the star power of Kyrie and KD run an offense, there’s movement, offball screens and cuts.

The 3 tower idea was great I’ll give him that, but we also got a lot of wins against teams depleted by covid and injuries, our record is definitely inflated, especially after Rubio went down. I think the criticisms he’s receiving here are very much well warranted

Not a JBB fan at all, but I wanted to address your last two paragraphs.

We’ve certainly been a big time PnR team this year, and there’s nothing wrong with that. You need to play to your strengths. I certainly think he could be more creative, but we do run other stuff, and it’s not like we’re oozing with offensive talent outside of Garland.

Chalking up our record as “inflated” and saying we got a ton of our wins against depleted teams is absurd. We were rarely at full strength throughout the season either. We lost guys to COVID and injuries for long stretches just as others did. It’s not like we got lucky and had some unsustainably good record in close games either.

We won 44 games and lost 38, that record is neither inflated nor deflated, it’s precisely what it is.

Our point differential actually points to us underachieving slightly in terms of our win total (that’s something you could use against JBB).

 

[CavsKermit]

I challenge people who are defending JBB to go on Memphis and Houston forums during his tenures in both franchises. They literally have the same complaints.. bad rotations, terrible inbound plays, getting killed out of timeouts, playing favorites and garbage offense.

With the Rockets he went 37-34 with a stacked roster and prime James Harden. D’Antoni took that same team the next season to 55 wins with almost an identical roster.

Then with the Grizzlies also fired him after a pretty disappointing season (33 wins with Gasol, Conley Randolf and Tony Allen). Sure they were on the older end but still definitely under preformed. Highly doubt Grizzlies would be having the acsension they are currently having with JBB at the Helm.

All there’s gripes posters are having with JBB aren’t new, same stuff fans have been complaining about since 2015. He hasn’t shown any improvement in these areas.

There is only room for 30 coaches in the NBA, nobody is going to convince me JBB is a too 30 coach in the world, his track record doesn’t prove it either.

I’m curious what do people see in him? What about his game plan provides such exemption from criticism? All I see is freelancing ISO ball and pick and rolls with Garland and Allen while everybody else stands around and watches, been like that all season. Other teams even the Nets with the star power of Kyrie and KD run an offense, there’s movement, offball screens and cuts.

The 3 tower idea was great I’ll give him that, but we also got a lot of wins against teams depleted by covid and injuries, our record is definitely inflated, especially after Rubio went down. I think the criticisms he’s receiving here are very much well warranted

Kevin McHale started as the coach for the Rockets that season and was fired after 11 games. He went 4-7. JBB was then promoted to interim head coach, and when the season ended after a listless playoff performance against the Warriors, JBB took himself out of the running as a permanent coaching candidate.

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That *stacked* roster was a complete mess. Dwight Howard and Harden disliked each other and wanted to play completely different styles. Howard was gone months later.

The Grizzlies traded Gasol in the middle of JBB's last season with the Grizzlies, and Conley a couple months after they let him go. They knew they were done.

That fans believe a team can be better with just a couple of the right rotations doesn't make it so. Coaches pay for poor front office decisions all the time in the NBA.