Koby Altman nailed, then failed to take breathalyzer…

[weepinwillow]

I think an issue here over the past several years is that many (including probably Dan Gilbert) have completely overestimated the value of our expiring contracts around the league.

There is probably bias here from the Baron Davis deal that got us Kyrie a decade ago. We struck gold on that deal - it was only especially good because we hit long-shot lotto odds. Would it have been as good if we ended up with Brandon Knight or Jimmer Fredette later in the lottery instead?

A lot of us think that because Dan is willing to eat a bad contract, we should get a big return. The fact is that other teams aren't willing to spend much to dump contracts anymore. It's the same reason we aren't willing to trade Kevin Love.


EDIT: I'll add that overall I don't think Altman has been that bad. We've had some bad lotto luck and a couple of his gambles (e.g., KPJ, Drummond) haven't paid off. In terms of trades, it takes 2 teams to agree. You can't force a team to give you a dollar if you only have 50 cents (even if you think you have a dollar).

These are good points. You need a couple of teams competing for a KD or Lebron in any given offseason to bring the value up on expiring deals. Nobody is dumping salary to get into the Otto Porter sweepstakes.

Kevin Love has been a bad deal from the get go. You competed with yourself on this. Cavs absolutely knew his market value, as he was basically on the trade block the second he grabbed his bags at the airport arriving from Minny into Cleveland. Non "alternate universe draft pick" roster moves I wish the Cavs had made through this rebuild:

* let Kev walk in 2019 unless you could get him extended on a 2 or 3 year deal vs the 4 year deal. You could have still offered the max money, but your timeline would have made more sense.. and nobody was going to offer him those kind of dollars, and his contract would have been more tradable at the end.
* Don't trade for AD. He was a putrid fit in every way. Even for nothing, he was a net negative in terms of development minutes, style of play you wanted your team to engage in, etc.
* Looked to re-sign TT to a similar deal Boston signed him for. He is over the hill, and not contributing like he used to, but if you don't have Andre, you have a spot for TT, and he has proven amenable to coming off the bench, provides the veteran leadership you want and is a good story for the Cavs. This may not have been much of an option, but it was a total non-option with Drummond on board.

We will see where this goes. I hate only banking on lottery luck and drafting. I love moves like the Allen trade, and signing guys to extensions like Nance (who was found sort of similarly to Allen). If you look at the best team in the NBA today (at least via standings) their best players were taken at 13 and 27 (and Gobert needed to be gotten via a trade with Denver... Erick Green and cash??? WTF, Denver??), so you don't need to always bank on having the lottery go your way. You do need a solid system for player development, team stability, and strong scouting departments.

That last sentence does not read like the Cavaliers. and that is what ultimately worries me about the franchise. I just don't trust Gilbert to provide a stable enough situation for the team to compete the way a small market needs to.

 

[PITCavsFan]

I just don't trust Gilbert to provide a stable enough situation for the team to compete the way a small market needs to.

I think this is a bigger issue. We all love having an owner that is willing to spend, but in this case it comes at the expense of an owner that loves to meddle and force outcomes.

I hate only banking on lottery luck and drafting. I love moves like the Allen trade, and signing guys to extensions like Nance (who was found sort of similarly to Allen). If you look at the best team in the NBA today (at least via standings) their best players were taken at 13 and 27 (and Gobert needed to be gotten via a trade with Denver... Erick Green and cash??? WTF, Denver??), so you don't need to always bank on having the lottery go your way. You do need a solid system for player development, team stability, and strong scouting departments.

Milwaukee is another example: they hit on Antetokounmpo with the 15th pick.

Unfortunately, for small markets, building a winning team in the NBA requires a great deal of luck (winning lottery or hitting on later picks). Culture is important, but I think luck > culture.

Also, the short-term nature of contracts (max = 4-5 years) makes it more difficult to build a team by developing talent from within. It takes too long before core pieces either want paid or leave.

 

[avs2000]

These are good points. You need a couple of teams competing for a KD or Lebron in any given offseason to bring the value up on expiring deals. Nobody is dumping salary to get into the Otto Porter sweepstakes.

Kevin Love has been a bad deal from the get go. You competed with yourself on this. Cavs absolutely knew his market value, as he was basically on the trade block the second he grabbed his bags at the airport arriving from Minny into Cleveland. Non "alternate universe draft pick" roster moves I wish the Cavs had made through this rebuild:

* let Kev walk in 2019 unless you could get him extended on a 2 or 3 year deal vs the 4 year deal. You could have still offered the max money, but your timeline would have made more sense.. and nobody was going to offer him those kind of dollars, and his contract would have been more tradable at the end.
* Don't trade for AD. He was a putrid fit in every way. Even for nothing, he was a net negative in terms of development minutes, style of play you wanted your team to engage in, etc.
* Looked to re-sign TT to a similar deal Boston signed him for. He is over the hill, and not contributing like he used to, but if you don't have Andre, you have a spot for TT, and he has proven amenable to coming off the bench, provides the veteran leadership you want and is a good story for the Cavs. This may not have been much of an option, but it was a total non-option with Drummond on board.

We will see where this goes. I hate only banking on lottery luck and drafting. I love moves like the Allen trade, and signing guys to extensions like Nance (who was found sort of similarly to Allen). If you look at the best team in the NBA today (at least via standings) their best players were taken at 13 and 27 (and Gobert needed to be gotten via a trade with Denver... Erick Green and cash??? WTF, Denver??), so you don't need to always bank on having the lottery go your way. You do need a solid system for player development, team stability, and strong scouting departments.

That last sentence does not read like the Cavaliers. and that is what ultimately worries me about the franchise. I just don't trust Gilbert to provide a stable enough situation for the team to compete the way a small market needs to.

Just got to disagree on AD. He was taking no playing time away from anybody until we got allen. Then they made it clear allen was the future.
I think them letting TT go was a move made for TT, to play on a contender again

I think they are building a good work ethic culture, and that is what you need for a bunch of 20 year olds.
I like the McGee trade. a 32 year old center does not fit the timeline. The player thay received back the kind of player you take a shot on at this point of rebuild.
Agree with you on Nance and Allen
Love is what he is, shut him down for the year and see what you have in him next year.

Stevens, Wade and Broderick are all interesting players. Looks like Wade is a Keeper. Need to see improvement in Windler

We need luck in the draft......the position we pick and the player we pick.

Worse thing they do is get rid of Koby and start over again

As for Gilbert...who knows what is input has been after the stroke



Sexton and Garland have improved from last year. Okoro will be better next year. Just like Garland and Sexton were better their second year

 

[Green Lantern]

I think this is a bigger issue. We all love having an owner that is willing to spend, but in this case it comes at the expense of an owner that loves to meddle and force outcomes.



Milwaukee is another example: they hit on Antetokounmpo with the 15th pick.

Unfortunately, for small markets, building a winning team in the NBA requires a great deal of luck (winning lottery or hitting on later picks). Culture is important, but I think luck > culture.

Also, the short-term nature of contracts (max = 4-5 years) makes it more difficult to build a team by developing talent from within. It takes too long before core pieces either want paid or leave.

The Cavs don't appear willing to take risks on athletic wings vs PGs.

 

[PITCavsFan]

The Cavs don't appear willing to take risks on athletic wings vs PGs.

 

[weepinwillow]

The Cavs don't appear willing to take risks on athletic wings vs PGs.

what wing are you talking about? I will admit, I really had my heart set on Mikal Bridges on draft night a few years ago.

But Okoro is a pretty high upside athletic wing chosen at 5, and noted KPjr pick last season.

Unfortunately, for small markets, building a winning team in the NBA requires a great deal of luck (winning lottery or hitting on later picks). Culture is important, but I think luck > culture.

I don't. The Bucks and Jazz and Pacers are all able to find good players all over the board because the culture was built first, and the luck followed. The Cavs were historically lucky for like 4 years straight and by the time Lebron chose to come back we had 1 legit NBA star and one solid role playing bigman along with a bunch of hot garbage or guys who would end up being hot garbage soon.

Just got to disagree on AD. He was taking no playing time away from anybody until we got allen. Then they made it clear allen was the future.
I think them letting TT go was a move made for TT, to play on a contender again

I think they are building a good work ethic culture, and that is what you need for a bunch of 20 year olds.
I like the McGee trade. a 32 year old center does not fit the timeline. The player thay received back the kind of player you take a shot on at this point of rebuild.
Agree with you on Nance and Allen
Love is what he is, shut him down for the year and see what you have in him next year.

Stevens, Wade and Broderick are all interesting players. Looks like Wade is a Keeper. Need to see improvement in Windler

We need luck in the draft......the position we pick and the player we pick.

Worse thing they do is get rid of Koby and start over again

As for Gilbert...who knows what is input has been after the stroke



Sexton and Garland have improved from last year. Okoro will be better next year. Just like Garland and Sexton were better their second year

I agree with most of this.. I don't agree on AD. While he may not have been taking minutes away, he was forcing the Cavs to play an archaic form of offense that, imo, wasn't going to help Garland or Sexton learn how to play in space and play off the pick and roll. I found AD to be one of the most hollow stat guys I've ever seen.

I will say that if the Cavs plan on having Allen as a centerpiece, which they do, they will need someone with some strength underneath to pair with him. In theory that could be Love, I guess, but in practice they still need to find someone.

 

[Green Lantern]

what wing are you talking about? I will admit, I really had my heart set on Mikal Bridges on draft night a few years ago.

But Okoro is a pretty high upside athletic wing chosen at 5, and noted KPjr pick last season.

I don't. The Bucks and Jazz and Pacers are all able to find good players all over the board because the culture was built first, and the luck followed. The Cavs were historically lucky for like 4 years straight and by the time Lebron chose to come back we had 1 legit NBA star and one solid role playing bigman along with a bunch of hot garbage or guys who would end up being hot garbage soon.

I agree with most of this.. I don't agree on AD. While he may not have been taking minutes away, he was forcing the Cavs to play an archaic form of offense that, imo, wasn't going to help Garland or Sexton learn how to play in space and play off the pick and roll. I found AD to be one of the most hollow stat guys I've ever seen.

I will say that if the Cavs plan on having Allen as a centerpiece, which they do, they will need someone with some strength underneath to pair with him. In theory that could be Love, I guess, but in practice they still need to find someone.

Go back in some of their drafts where they took a smaller guard,and overlooked some riskier wing players.. Not talking about KPJ.

 

[weepinwillow]

Go back in some of their drafts where they took a smaller guard,and overlooked some riskier wing players.. Not talking about KPJ.

you mean like back during the dark days of Chris Grant? Yeah, those were ugly times. At least Chris did re-hire Mike Brown for a second look!

 

[PITCavsFan]

Go back in some of their drafts where they took a smaller guard,and overlooked some riskier wing players.. Not talking about KPJ.

Who are you talking about? Why would you pass on someone you think is BPA for a "riskier" player?

Koby's first draft was 2018 and we were looking at a fresh, total rebuild. You take the player who is BPA on your list and worry about fit later.

 

[Green Lantern]

Maybe you should research a bit over a span of 10 or 15+ years of Cavs drafts.PA for the Cavs has often meant... Safe player.

 

[Cavatt]

Go back in some of their drafts where they took a smaller guard,and overlooked some riskier wing players.. Not talking about KPJ.

Glad they didn't take Knox and got Sexton I guess

 

[PITCavsFan]

Maybe you should research a bit over a span of 10 or 15+ years of Cavs drafts.PA for the Cavs has often meant... Safe player.

Help me out:

Cleveland Cavaliers Draft Picks | Basketball-Reference.com

Get the list of all the Cleveland Cavaliers Draft Picks in NBA in year by year format on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

 

[CavsFan07]

I like to bump this thread periodically.

Wonder if OP will continue to feel this way if we’re this bad again next year?

 

[J_J]

I like Garland but one person I wish we had drafted and preferred is Rui Hachimura last year. I’ve seen him since his middle school, high school, and college days and amazed how he has improved. He has played so much better now and is improving more. Next year we will definitely need offense talent.

 

[JJ_PR]

I like to bump this thread periodically.

Wonder if OP will continue to feel this way if we’re this bad again next year?

I think we need to cut Altman some slack. As we've seen with other rebuilds, it takes time & luck. The Cavs have some great pieces in Sexton, Garland, Okoro, Allen & Nance. That's something to get excited about imo.

It takes time for teams to start winning after a rebuild. This team needs to build some continuity. I can't stress enough how important that is.