Kyrie Irving

[godfather]

Rubio is fucking garbage. Any ranking that supports him as a top-6 point guard is laughable.

 

[Real Deal]

Kyrie will have the best season of his career this year. Book it.

I'll be here every night eating popcorn.

 

[godfather]

Someone probably should inform the T-Wolves (who've been trying to trade Rubio this off-season) and all the other 29 teams (there have been no takers) that Rubio is a top-6 point guard according to the podcast nerds.

After all, they know better, right?

 

[David.]

I posted the average expected number of points Kyrie gives up as a result of his poor defense.



@Simon did.. not me.



I don't think anyone is following what I'm saying; they might just agree rationally.



I don't think there should be "sides" here if we all agree we're being rational.

Gouri you led the kyrie killers group and entitled it.

You have a plethora of people that follow your opinion from topic to topic simply because it's yours.

I could name them one by one.

I have my own too.

As far as sides go, you have been posting much differently as of late, but I'd say you were one of the most divisive posters on here and will not let anyone have an opinion that differs from yours, and will fight any point until it's bone. Yu also tag people into your posts and rep any post that agrees with yours while doing your arguments.

There are sides that are pretty evidently created with your arguments. You create teams.

Petri dish is here: I don't hate kyrie Irving but I'm consistently forced to argue against him because of the incredible popular opinion that no one will touch because they see what happens.

Queue the many memes and nerd responses to back up your side

 

[gourimoko]

Gouri you led the kyrie killers group and entitled it.

You have a plethora of people that follow your opinion from topic to topic simply because it's yours.

I could name them one by one.

I have my own too.

I would argue that there are posters here of like-mind, not that we follow one another.. I enjoy reading certain posters just as I'd hope they enjoy reading my posts. It's a two-way street. That's only to be expected on a discussion board.

As far as sides go, you have been posting much differently as of late, but I'd say you were one of the most divisive posters on here and will not let anyone have an opinion that differs from yours, and will fight any point until it's bone. Yu also tag people in and encourage any post that agrees with yours while doing your arguments.

Yeah; I wouldn't ever call my posting divisive.. but.. if you think so, then I'll try to be less so...

I think the problem comes when folks feel they've run out of rationale, and feel I'm being argumentative rather than just debating a topic.

I come from a school of thought that says you test a conclusion thoroughly, with the utmost scrutiny and rationality. So, I do attempt to exhaust arguments so that I can be sure what conclusion is right. I'm not arguing just to hear myself talk, but I'm reasoning the proposition through right along with the person proposing it.. I could be; and have been; wrong.

There are sides that are pretty evidently created with your arguments

I don't know how I can create sides when I myself am not on any side...

You could call me a Kyrie fan, sure... But does that mean I'm not willing to identify his flaws?

Nonetheless, it should stand to reason that regardless of what I may or may not be as a fan; if my argument is rational, then my motives should be irrelevant, right?

I mean, it'd be one thing if someone pointed to a methodology that made rational sense; I would be forced to agree, logically. But what I've seen, and I'd argue you're on this "side" of the coin; is a group of posters that undervalue Kyrie Irving. This has gone on for 2-3 years now. I find that this "side" of the coin tries to find arguments against Kyrie, without giving a full hearing to the arguments for Kyrie.

We don't talk about the playoffs because...
We discount his injury because...
We ignore 2014-15 because...
We discount the fact that LeBron is the primary point guard because...

Comparisons to John Wall and Kyle Lowry who are the primary playmakers on their respective teams, that don't mention LeBron James, are disingenuous; and this is just one example of what I mean by not giving Kyrie a fair hearing.

I'm less interested in converting fans. If people don't like a particular player, have at it. But to tell me, objectively, that Ricky Rubio and Kyle Korver are statistically and demonstrably better NBA players and lead to a more winning team than the one that just won the championship; I find, stretches credibility and rationality beyond disbelief.

That's why I engage in the conversation; because I want to understand what it is that you or someone else might see that I must surely be missing. How have you come to this conclusion, that I find so strikingly against the one I've come to?

 

[David.]

I would argue that there are posters here of like-mind, not that we follow one another.. I enjoy reading certain posters just as I'd hope they enjoy reading my posts. It's a two-way street. That's only to be expected on a discussion board.



Yeah; I wouldn't ever call my posting divisive.. but.. if you think so, then I'll try to be less so...

I think the problem comes when folks feel they've run out of rationale, and feel I'm being argumentative rather than just debating a topic.

I come from a school of thought that says you test a conclusion thoroughly, with the utmost scrutiny and rationality. So, I do attempt to exhaust arguments so that I can be sure what conclusion is right. I'm not arguing just to hear myself talk, but I'm reasoning the proposition through right along with the person proposing it.. I could be; and have been; wrong.



I don't know how I can create sides when I myself am not on any side...

You could call me a Kyrie fan, sure... But does that mean I'm not willing to identify his flaws?

Nonetheless, it should stand to reason that regardless of what I may or may not be as a fan; if my argument is rational, then my motives should be irrelevant, right?

I mean, it'd be one thing if someone pointed to a methodology that made rational sense; I would be forced to agree, logically. But what I've seen, and I'd argue you're on this "side" of the coin; is a group of posters that undervalue Kyrie Irving. This has gone on for 2-3 years now. I find that this "side" of the coin tries to find arguments against Kyrie, without giving a full hearing to the arguments for Kyrie.

We don't talk about the playoffs because...
We discount his injury because...
We ignore 2014-15 because...
We discount the fact that LeBron is the primary point guard because...

Comparisons to John Wall and Kyle Lowry who are the primary playmakers on their respective teams, that don't mention LeBron James, are disingenuous; and this is just one example of what I mean by not giving Kyrie a fair hearing.

I'm less interested in converting fans. If people don't like a particular player, have at it. But to tell me, objectively, that Ricky Rubio and Kyle Korver are statistically and demonstrably better NBA players and lead to a more winning team than the one that just won the championship; I find, stretches credibility and rationality beyond disbelief.

That's why I engage in the conversation; because I want to understand what it is that you or someone else might see that I must surely be missing. How have you come to this conclusion, that I find so strikingly against the one I've come to?

Lol I'm not arguing against you on it, because it's one against a small army.

You genuinely don't see the same names supporting all of your posts?

Ivr been on the board for 8 years, I see enough patterns. I see plenty of piling on as well, which is something you specifically were frustrated with this same time last year.

 

[gourimoko]

There are sides that are pretty evidently created with your arguments. You create teams.

I think you're giving me far too much credit (or blame, depending on how you read this) than what is deserved.

I'm not sure why this conversation has turned into what amounts to an ad hominem against me, rather than a discussion about Kyrie.

Petri dish is here: I don't hate kyrie Irving but I'm consistently forced to argue against him because of the incredible popular opinion that no one will touch because they see what happens.

Do you feel a need to take on popular opinion? What if popular opinion is right? Is there some inherent value in being a contrarian even if and when wrong?

Queue the many memes and nerd responses to back up your side

I'm not on any side of this conversation; at least, not with respect to what you and I are discussing.

If people post memes etc, it's because they're fans of the guy that just won them a ring. I understand that can be emotional and seem/is dissmissive of the larger, more nuanced point you're trying to make. But we've evaluated Kyrie under a microscope for years; and I do understand how some posters might feel this is a bit ridiculous.

That's why I think a better framing of this conversation should be "what are the shortcomings of advanced statistics with respect to measuring players like Kyrie Irving."

To give you an idea of what I mean, for what it's worth, Kyrie posted an ORPM of +4.x in 2014-15 season; it was his DRPM that brought him down... So if ORPM/DRPM do what they claim to do, then his offensive production/court vision (that they supposedly capture) was superior to Lowry's since those aren't defensive aspects of the game.

 

[gourimoko]

Lol I'm not arguing against you on it, because it's one against a small army.

Dave, honestly, are you surprised that there are Kyrie fans on a site called RealCavsFans in a thread called "Kyrie Irving."



They're fans.. he just won them a ring.. he literally hit the game winner... A lot of people see that and think "not this shit, AGAIN!" Because they read, time after time, from a small but vocal segment of posters, that we'd be better off with someone like Matthew Dellavedova running the position -- because +/- said so.

You genuinely don't see the same names supporting all of your posts?

Is that a negative? I think those are people just saying "yep, I agree, thanks for saving me the time of saying it myself."

You would agree that your position is not commonly held or accepted on this forum right?

Ivr been on the board for 8 years, I see enough patterns. I see plenty of piling on as well, which is something you specifically were frustrated with this same time last year.

I recall being pissed off about fans not being fans; but that's not rational.. That's me being a fan.

 

[David.]

Dave, honestly, are you surprised that there are Kyrie fans on a site called RealCavsFans in a thread called "Kyrie Irving."



They're fans.. he just won them a ring.. he literally hit the game winner... A lot of people see that and think "not this shit, AGAIN!" Because they read, time after time, from a small but vocal segment of posters, that we'd be better off with someone like Matthew Dellavedova running the position -- because +/- said so.



Is that a negative? I think those are people just saying "yep, I agree, thanks for saving me the time of saying it myself."

You would agree that your position is not commonly held or accepted on this forum right?



I recall being pissed off about fans not being fans; but that's not rational.. That's me being a fan.

Do you remember arguing for the freedom to have dissenting opinion specifically over the lack of moves last summer? I was fighting along next to you

 

[gourimoko]

Do you remember arguing for the freedom to have dissenting opinion specifically over the lack of moves last summer? I was fighting along next to you

Bro.. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to say what you're saying.. I'm still right there with you!

I thought our conversation was interesting...

It went off the rails because a troll hopped on.

p.s.
I do think the conversation as to why Irving isn't favored as much as someone like Lowry with respect to RPM/RAPM is an interesting one; but, I don't think that entails Kyrie Irving isn't as good as Kyle Lowry. I think that's a mistake... it over emphasizes the usefulness of RAPM/RPM while misconstruing, what I think, is an otherwise useful metric.

 

[Jordan]

Do you remember arguing for the freedom to have dissenting opinion specifically over the lack of moves last summer? I was fighting along next to you

IIRC, Gour was one of a few posters totally shitting on Kyrie for his defense the past two seasons, albeit acknowledging his injury history this season. I think him, @Chris Parker, and you - Dave - were leading a very minority team saying winning with that defense would be near-impossible, and unless it improved (it did), we were fucked.

I actually agree with your overall point, Dave, about cliques forming on here, just like they do on any forum. But that doesn't mean the Kyrie "supporters" are all wrong, biased, etc. I use my eyes in combination with my knowledge of stats to suggest he is an "elite" point guard, with Russ, Curry, CP3, and possibly Lillard/Wall being the only other members.

Nonetheless, I do agree that sometimes there is an overbearing and, frankly, shaming of dissenting opinion on here (this occurs on multiple topics, not just Kyrie, as Delly, Felder, and TT are all recent ones), which is something I hope disappears.

 

[Cavatt]

I disagree with Gourimoko all the time. I also agree with him all the time.

I was also one of those who very much questioned whether Kyrie could be our best player and even if he could reach his potential. I felt he would go at any defense no matter what relying on his ball skills and shooting instead of his brain. I felt really vindicated when he said at media day that he was relying too much on his talent and not enough on the team and just making the right basketball play.

I am also just not going to complain about Kyrie anymore. He has actually started working on his weaknesses, and he has shown he can be a good defender when he tries which is not good enough, but is better than "can't play D". He also seems to play better and better over the course of a series, which can not be underestimated in its value.

I think he grew this championship year more than he did in the previous 4. He has become a mature player, and I am sure that is largely due to LBJ. I am glad we can really root for him as a Robin instead of hoping he learns to be Batman by himself.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

The 35 year old shooter who runs around screens might play better team ball than the 23 old PG with elite handles?

Korver relies on his team and the excess individual talent to make his way in the league. He's a nice role player.

You can't compare him to Kyrie Irving with a straight face without looking like you just want to argue about something.

How many days until the opener?

 

[godfather]

I'll be the first to admit, I am bias probably in regard with Kyrie. He's my favorite player in the NBA, not just on our team. I'd be a fan of his if we didn't draft him. I was one of his hardcore champions to draft him before he was a Cav. I really enjoy watching him play. Even more than LeBron.

And I've been guilty of getting carried away with him, like calling him the best point guard in the league after we won it all (I was sentimental and got caught up in the emotion). And my strong dislike towards Curry, outside him being on the Warriors, and being kinda of a douche anyways, is because I want Kyrie to be the best too.

I really think he can be. Sometimes I am actually very critical of him too. But it's tough love kind of critical.

I personally, have only got offended and sometimes aggressive when people have called him a loser, or questioned his integrity. That I don't like.

I don't view it as a "if you criticize Kyrie, I'm against you now" kind of thing. I only get annoyed when fans literally start hating on our players, which is pretty absurd, just because they have a bad game, etc...

 

[BigErieCavsFan]

I don't post much anymore, but always lurking (most of it in this thread ). I am a cavs fan and watch all of the games, but I have the pass and have watched plenty basketball the last 10-15 years. The game has changed quite a bit recently, so positions aren't defined or as important as they used to be. This Lowry/Korver shit is kind of ridiculous. I have Kyrie as a top 5 guard. And I really hope he proves that this year with a healthy and MVP type season. Although I think it will be next season that the torch gets passed.

Bottom line... I would not want any other guard over Kyrie on my team at this time.