Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Sebastian]

Spoiler

Did they have to kill Batoc? There is a genuine dearth of leapers within the MCU.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Spoiler

Did they have to kill Batoc? There is a genuine dearth of leapers within the MCU.

They should have kept him around for the inevitable Thunderbolts series/movie.

And in general they really need to stop killing their bad guys. Those guys can be useful down the line like Zemo.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

The problem for me is that they set it up as "they'll never let a black man be Captain America." Then Sam decides to become Captain America and everyone is totally okay with it. The show keeps telling us how things are, but it never shows us. The way people react to Sam doesn't vibe with how we've been told people will react to him, and that, to me, is the big problem with how the show handles race. Sam says he can feel it in the crowd that some people aren't cool with him being Captain America, but we never fucking see it, and we need to see it for it to really hit home.

The show constantly talks about racism, but never shows us any racists.

I thought it was pretty well laid out.

A lot of people have a lot of resentment. The stars and stripes mean a lot of things to a lot of people. To Isaiah, they mean all the history--all the bad shit he's had to deal with.

Sam understands all that, but also knows what the stars and stripes mean to the people, in the country, today. He knows that whoever dons that uniform has an immense amount of power and responsibility. He agrees to do it not because he thinks that the history is one he's proud to support, but because by doing so he can try and fight to prevent future generations from having to go through the struggles Isaiah went through. He knows it's going to be hard--it's certainly not the easy way out, but he's willing to shoulder that burden, and figure out the best way forward. The scene actually talking with the GRC was pretty damn awesome--certainly not something I expected.

I guess I don't need to see the racists. If you show some asshole racists, that would cheapen it all. That may just be bias talking.

 

[Pioneer10]

I thought it was pretty well laid out.

A lot of people have a lot of resentment. The stars and stripes mean a lot of things to a lot of people. To Isaiah, they mean all the history--all the bad shit he's had to deal with.

Sam understands all that, but also knows what the stars and stripes mean to the people, in the country, today. He knows that whoever dons that uniform has an immense amount of power and responsibility. He agrees to do it not because he thinks that the history is one he's proud to support, but because by doing so he can try and fight to prevent future generations from having to go through the struggles Isaiah went through. He knows it's going to be hard--it's certainly not the easy way out, but he's willing to shoulder that burden, and figure out the best way forward. The scene actually talking with the GRC was pretty damn awesome--certainly not something I expected.

I guess I don't need to see the racists. If you show some asshole racists, that would cheapen it all. That may just be bias talking.

Yeah i think they're trying to figure out what is redemption and what is owed?
Yes Falcon can be Captain America but does that absolve or make up for what happened to Bradley. Is Falcon given a gift from another white man or is it earned?

Tricky questions and it's Bradley who really feels a black man couldn't be Captain America while Falcon originally just didn't want to try to be Steve Rodgers 2.0

 

[Pioneer10]

Finished Falcon and the Winter Soldier tonight. All in all, I found it really enjoyable, but it was far from flawless.

The main issue I have with this show is how heavy-handed the racial stuff was. There was just no nuance to it. It's so much less effective because of how in your face it is. Contrast it with, say, a movie like Jojo Rabbit, which tells the story of a kid coming to terms with the fact that all the hatred he's been taught is complete bullshit, but also never feels preachy. Jojo comes to the natural conclusion that he's been lied to over the course of the movie in a very natural way, and his journey is so much more satisfying and meaningful because of it.

I actually liked that they didn't go the obvious path with John Walker. It seemed like they were really setting him up to be the villain in the end, but when push came to shove he abandoned his knockoff shield to save civilians. The problem is that they did absolutely nothing to set his face turn up. He went from being a total asshole in episode five to being not so bad a guy in episode six. They desperately needed a scene with him expressing remorse for what he did in episode five, but we didn't get that. Instead, his turn seemed to come out of nowhere. Just add a scene of him questioning his previous actions with his wife, who was totally underutilized, and you've got a narrative arc that makes sense and is satisfying. Instead, he just seems bipolar.

I also disliked that Sam and Bucky are pretty much just cool with him in the final episode after their fight in episode five. Like, this dude straight up tried to murder Sam in the previous episode, and would have had Bucky not saved him at the last second. Give these guys a conversation where he apologizes, for fuck's sake. He had a built in excuse. He saw his best friend die and he snapped. That's forgivable, but he has to at least acknowledge it.

Bucky's story was also horribly glossed over in the final episode. One of the most interesting subplots was him making amends with the old Asian guy whose son he killed as the Winter Soldier, and yet that scene was thirty fucking seconds and cut out before we got to anything meaningful.

The show was very well-made, but so sloppily executed at times.

I think the John Walker part is a different reflection of the Winter Soldier story. Yes walker is a bit of an asshole but he's not a bad person. In anger he committed a horrific deed but outside of the context he returns to his roots. I think this is better then a lot of stories where one act completely turns a characters morals completely 360

Agree it wasn't perfect: would have been fun to have more Wakandans and more Zemo who was the real breakout star.
Other flaws: the loan for his sister - come on he's Falcon that shit wouldn't have happened. just do an add for the fucking bank
Falcon was a counselor and while he tried to do that with Karli not much with Soldier: weird.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I think the John Walker part is a different reflection of the Winter Soldier story. Yes walker is a bit of an asshole but he's not a bad person. In anger he committed a horrific deed but outside of the context he returns to his roots. I think this is better then a lot of stories where one act completely turns a characters morals completely 360

I 100% agree that Walker was not a bad person. But he was a total piece of shit in episode five and then everyone was just pretty much okay with him in episode six. That's my problem. He never had a scene where he expressed remorse for his actions or made peace with Sam/Bucky.

I'm fine with him getting his redemption, because as you said he was never portrayed as an evil character. It just felt unearned in the finale.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Is Falcon given a gift from another white man or is it earned?

To me, it's neither.

It's an opportunity.

It's like dwelling on the age old going back in time to kill Hitler question, and asking if it's a gift from whoever allowed you to time travel, or if your intentions to kill Hitler were worthy of this... you're missing the fact that the man feels it's an opportunity to make the world a better place.

 

[MRMsix6]

So uh, that ~3 minute monologue by Sam, where he lays out in quite literal fashion the entire ethos of the show while everyone just stands in a circle and looks at him, dumbfounded, did that not feel super hackey to anyone else? Felt like I was watching Mr. Rodgers deliver his closing monologue at the end of an episode, but not in a good way.

The opening action scene of Sam in ep. 1 was so well-shot, and then in ep.6 the action is an underwhelming, poorly cut, shaky-cam mess. What happened?

The Flag-Smashers were super underwhelming villains that the writers spent an inordinate amount of screen-time portraying as virtuous. They never feel remotely threatening and just come off as a nuisance that our heroes need to deal with. And does anyone actually care about Sharon Carter? Her character and the actress who plays her are painfully dull.

This show had some good moments, but overall I'm left disappointed. The pacing of the show was particularly brutal.

 

[Jack Brickman]

So uh, that ~3 minute monologue by Sam, where he lays out in quite literal fashion the entire ethos of the show while everyone just stands in a circle and looks at him, dumbfounded, did that not feel super hackey to anyone else? Felt like I was watching Mr. Rodgers deliver his closing monologue at the end of an episode, but not in a good way.

The opening action scene of Sam in ep. 1 was so well-shot, and then in ep.6 the action is an underwhelming, poorly cut, shaky-cam mess. What happened?

The Flag-Smashers were super underwhelming villains that the writers spent an inordinate amount of screen-time portraying as virtuous. They never feel remotely threatening and just come off as a nuisance that our heroes need to deal with. And does anyone actually care about Sharon Carter? Her character and the actress who plays her are painfully dull.

This show had some good moments, but overall I'm left disappointed. The pacing of the show was particularly brutal.

They cut out a major plotline on the show dealing with a pandemic, and I feel like that left the Flag Smasher plot feeling horribly undercooked. I assume the point of the show was to portray them as victims of circumstance. All these people came back from the dead and they were left hanging, and then a pandemic hits and no one is trying to help them because they're too busy reintegrating all the people brought back by Iron Man in Endgame.

 

[Pioneer10]

Can we just have a show of Zemo on the run from Wakandans?
They can make him the Sitashi Nakamoto figure with virtual currency which money launders money thru nightclubs

 

[Jack Brickman]

Can we just have a show of Zemo on the run from Wakandans?
They can make him the Sitashi Nakamoto figure with virtual currency which money launders money thru nightclubs

Pretty sure we're going to get a Zemo Thunderbolts series at some point. I could see Walker or Zemo leading the team.

 

[spydy13]

His new suit was pretty dope though...

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

It had its flaws but I think it accomplished its main goal with me, which was make me interested in seeing future adventures with Sam and Bucky.

After the Endgame climax of all climaxes I thought I was done with Marvel, but I'm back in.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It had its flaws but I think it accomplished its main goal with me, which was make me interested in seeing future adventures with Sam and Bucky.

After the Endgame climax of all climaxes I thought I was done with Marvel, but I'm back in.

Yeah, they did a good job in that regard. Not only were Bucky and Sam great but they also turned Zemo into one of the best characters in the MCU and Walker should have an interesting path going forward too.

 

[MirORich]

Is there a link or article out there that details how much of the storyline had to be re-shaped due to them removing the parts that referenced a virus/pandemic? Would like to understand how much they had to pivot.

Overall, more pluses than minuses for me but I agree there were flaws and some clunkiness. Still pretty badass though and now we're that much closer to Loki, which looks to be incredible, the the reintroduction of the actual films in theaters on a fairly regular basis.