Mike Brown

[billmac91]

You just named 4 guys who have proven nothing at the NBA level. Just because they can scheme well in college or because there players in college like them doesn not mean the same would be true in the NBA. Could some of them end up beng good NBA coaches? Sure. Could some of those end up as good a coach or better than Mike Brown? Perhaps. But the big flaw is that you already have assumed and assigned that to them, with no basis in fact or experience. That is a mighty big risk to take for a third system and third coach in three years for a young roster.

You also give all the credit to the improved play post Grant to Griffin vs. Giving it to Brown and the coaching staff.

I don't think it's coincidental that this team immediately began playing better after Griffin held a meeting with the team and espoused the need for players to have trust in one another. And that if they played without trust and selfishly, there'd be plenty of time to ride the bench and figure out how to play team basketball. Why it took Grant getting fired for that message to get out is actually what is troubling. Again, it shouldn't take the GM to be the team psychologist. But Griffin's philosophy on team play is exactly why he is being tied to the New York Knicks GM position. Griffin is a protege of Steve Kerr who is a protege of Phil Jackson. In any event, Mike Brown absolutely does not fit into the philosophy of a Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, or David Griffin run team.

You can disregard everything I've just said, but trust me when I say David Griffin feels communication skill is the most critical attribute a Head Coach needs to have to be successful. When the coach can clearly convey thoughts, ranging from offensive/defensive principles to why he's utilizing a certain substitution pattern, or why one guy got 10 minutes instead of 25....those are things a Head Coach in the NBA needs to be able to do nearly flawlessly. It instills trust within the 4 walls of a locker-room and allows players to develop without having their confidence scorched or left misunderstanding why they aren't seeing minutes. That built up trust is also what allows good teams to succeed in the fourth quarter of close games when all the chips are down. It's why Phil Jackson used to have his Bulls practice in 90% darkness so they'd have to trust that guys were where they were supposed to be without actually seeing them.

Mike Brown just isn't this type of guy. He isn't wired to be a part-time X's and O's coach (which he struggles with anyways) and a part-time psychologist (which he really struggles with). Mike is a workhorse. He feverishly breaks down video and tries to extrapolate what he sees in game film and practice court study into the heads of players. He understands defense and has made his mark there, but he hasn't passionately changed the culture of this team. Players don't love Mike Brown. They come to respect him but it isn't in the same realm as a guy like Phil. It isn't that Mike is a bad guy or has no place in the NBA....I just don't see him having a place with the Cavs if Griffin is named GM. And the opposite is true...if Mike retains the Head Coaching job, I don't think Griffin sticks around in Cleveland.

 

[KingDelonte13]

I don't think it's coincidental that this team immediately began playing better after Griffin held a meeting with the team and espoused the need for players to have trust in one another. And that if they played without trust and selfishly, there'd be plenty of time to ride the bench and figure out how to play team basketball. Why it took Grant getting fired for that message to get out is actually what is troubling. Again, it shouldn't take the GM to be the team psychologist. But Griffin's philosophy on team play is exactly why he is being tied to the New York Knicks GM position. Griffin is a protege of Steve Kerr who is a protege of Phil Jackson. In any event, Mike Brown absolutely does not fit into the philosophy of a Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, or David Griffin run team.

You can disregard everything I've just said, but trust me when I say David Griffin feels communication skill is the most critical attribute a Head Coach needs to have to be successful. When the coach can clearly convey thoughts, ranging from offensive/defensive principles to why he's utilizing a certain substitution pattern, or why one guy got 10 minutes instead of 25....those are things a Head Coach in the NBA needs to be able to do nearly flawlessly. It instills trust within the 4 walls of a locker-room and allows players to develop without having their confidence scorched or left misunderstanding why they aren't seeing minutes. That built up trust is also what allows good teams to succeed in the fourth quarter of close games when all the chips are down. It's why Phil Jackson used to have his Bulls practice in 90% darkness so they'd have to trust that guys were where they were supposed to be without actually seeing them.

Mike Brown just isn't this type of guy. He isn't wired to be a part-time X's and O's coach (which he struggles with anyways) and a part-time psychologist (which he really struggles with). Mike is a workhorse. He feverishly breaks down video and tries to extrapolate what he sees in game film and practice court study into the heads of players. He understands defense and has made his mark there, but he hasn't passionately changed the culture of this team. Players don't love Mike Brown. They come to respect him but it isn't in the same realm as a guy like Phil. It isn't that Mike is a bad guy or has no place in the NBA....I just don't see him having a place with the Cavs if Griffin is named GM. And the opposite is true...if Mike retains the Head Coaching job, I don't think Griffin sticks around in Cleveland.

you just keep on making statements based on personal assumptions and passing them off as fact. "Players don't respect Brown." "Mike Brown isn't an X's and O's guy". The P-jax lineage is pretty crappy, and Kerr hasn't coached an NBA game yet and everybody already assumes he's going to be good. It's a grass is greener type of thing IMO.

Brown is a popovich guy. Pop is a better coach than jackson ever was IMO, and accomplished a lot with less and in a small market too. The David Griffin/Steve Kerr era Suns were as much as a failure, if not more so, than the Lebron era cavaliers.

 

[billmac91]

you just keep on making statements based on personal assumptions and passing them off as fact. "Players don't respect Brown." "Mike Brown isn't an X's and O's guy". The P-jax lineage is pretty crappy, and Kerr hasn't coached an NBA game yet and everybody already assumes he's going to be good. It's a grass is greener type of thing IMO.

Brown is a popovich guy. Pop is a better coach than jackson ever was IMO, and accomplished a lot with less and in a small market too. The David Griffin/Steve Kerr era Suns were as much as a failure, if not more so, than the Lebron era cavaliers.

I'm discussing fit more than "what works" per-say and I don't see Griffin and Brown as one. I understand Phil Jackson's coaching tree is pretty horrible, but a lot of those guys weren't the psychologist type Phil was either. I don't think it's as simple as saying since Mike Brown coached under Pop, he is trying to run the same offensive system. While Steve Kerr would be considered under the Jackson tree, he may not run the triangle as an example.

Jackson, Griffin, and Kerr are all guys who strongly fall under the "zen" approach of building a team. Fit is of the utmost importance. I just don't see Griffin and Brown in the same organization as Head Coach and GM. It's one or the other IMO. And I can easily see Griffin taking a job with the Knicks should Brown be retained, as his philosophy would be in-line with Jackson and presumably Kerr if Kerr were to land the head coaching gig.

And the comments about respecting Brown don't seem out of bounds to me. For the record, I said players do respect Mike, but they don't love him. He had a horrible run in L.A. where the players actually hated him (look up comments from Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum) and his tenure in Cleveland has been rocky as well. He's had run-ins with Dion, Kyrie, Bynum again, and Luol Deng essentially said the inmates were running the asylum upon his arrival to Cleveland in respect to practices. Even with that said, I believe most players like Mike, feel he's a decent enough guy, but he lacks specific traits that demand respect and inspire confidence from the guys under him, IMO.

Would it suck to be on our third coach in three years? Yes. Would it suck if they actually made an intelligent hire that fit the current construction of our roster and found someone that could better relate to the players and in turn energize the team? No.

I just don't think Mike gives this franchise the best opportunity at success going forward. Will they continue to improve marginally under his direction? Probably. But I just don't see him instilling a franchise changing culture like a lot of other candidates could, IMO.

 

[#21]

I think an avatar change is in order, or at least a slight alteration. :chuckles:

Reppin' Fire Mike Brown avatars since 08. The only time I might change it, is the day when he coaches us to a Championship. So, in other words: I'll keep it up forever.

 

[PeonHaiters]

you just keep on making statements based on personal assumptions and passing them off as fact. "Players don't respect Brown." "Mike Brown isn't an X's and O's guy". The P-jax lineage is pretty crappy, and Kerr hasn't coached an NBA game yet and everybody already assumes he's going to be good. It's a grass is greener type of thing IMO.

Brown is a popovich guy. Pop is a better coach than jackson ever was IMO, and accomplished a lot with less and in a small market too. The David Griffin/Steve Kerr era Suns were as much as a failure, if not more so, than the Lebron era cavaliers.

Yea, coaching trees are kinda like the movie Multiplicity. Sure, you start with Michael Keaton (Phil Jackson) but you eventually end up with a version of him that has a fucked up genetic code.

 

[Cashius X]

Here is what Mike Brown wants to do:
Lock down half court defense.
A running team in transition looking to press and score easy buckets.

No need to have a complicated half court offense when you want the points in transition more. As the players play together more they will learn what works for them on offense... But the only offense Brown cares about is the offense that results from defense.

This is exactly how the Miami Heat play. Seems to work well enough for them.

But Miami actually has a pretty elaborate half court offense. They run plays and they're pretty effective.

There's going to come a time when you won't have the opportunity to score in transition and your defense won't create scoring opportunities. Plays are needed to generate offense when the easy options are taken away.

 

[Tornicade]

Its odd Griffin get credit for firing up the Cavs when what he did was say. coach has my back and i got his back. meaning that if the gm says a guy cant play. Brown will enforce it. if Brown says someone cant play. Griffin will endorse it.

Brown and Grant may have been friends but in 10 minutes David Griffin empowered Brown more than he ever has been as a coach.

Brown can coach the team to the finals. He can make decisions that win series. this is proven.

meanwhile its premature to make a coaching season. if they make a louse lousy start you can because you have nothing to lose. but going into an offseason with young players just gett acclimated to the current staff. it would be a huge mistake.

The offense has looked pretty good when the trust is there and the heroball isnt.

Last 35 games
Cavs O rating 16th D Rating 15th. Assist % 9th. Assist to TO 8th. O Reb 8th. TO ratio 8th. Pace 16th. 8th in fast break points.

besides those theres alot of areas the Cavs can improve upon offensively.. points of turnovers, EFG and TS, etc.

the key to the offense is the defense because once they get the defense down and playing both sides of the court they will be more relaxed and less premeditated.

 

[Cashius X]

I heard a recent podcast where Mark Cuban said something along the lines of "if you talk to any NBA player, he'll tell you how he'd score 20 points per game if the coach would just let him play". I had to laugh at that, thinking about all the nonsense posts on here about how awful Mike Brown is. How great Dion would be if he got 35 minutes. How he refuses to play Karasev and develop young players (you know, while Delly was playing a substantial role most of the season.

He was brought on primarily to instill defense in a very young team. He made great strides in this area, but unfortunately, the team took more than half a season to connect the dots. The dots were connecting at the end. It's crazy to get rid of Brown at this point.

It's defense and team first. If you put in the effort and don't act entitled, you'll play under Brown. There were clearly issues with Dion early on in the season with pouting and the Bynum cancer probably didn't help. By the end, Dion made a huge turnaround. If Brown is fired, the new coach is going to be in a really lucky position thanks to the progress Brown made this year.

Dion made a turnaround by the end of the year but it wasn't solely because of the "tough love" Mike Brown showed him earlier on in the season. He played much better because he was given more consistent playing time and was able to have a bigger role on the team. I'm sick of people crediting Brown for Dion's play down the stretch. He could've done that all year had he been given the chance.

And I love how you can say the bolded while Kyrie consistently saw 30+ minutes every single game even though he was our worst defender and showed the least amount of effort early on, on the entire team. Your post is contradictory. He put in little/no effort and he acted entitled yet he still saw his big minutes and starting role every night.

All in all, yes, Brown made progress. No one can deny that. The problem many have, including myself, is how long it took Mike Brown to correct rotational and other rudimentary mistakes that led to the improved play we saw in the 2nd half of the season. Had our 25 million dollar coach corrected these mistakes many posters had been complaining of earlier on, we would most likely still be playing right now instead of fishing.

 

[KB]

Dion made a turnaround by the end of the year but it wasn't solely because of the "tough love" Mike Brown showed him earlier on in the season. He played much better because he was given more consistent playing time and was able to have a bigger role on the team. I'm sick of people crediting Brown for Dion's play down the stretch. He could've done that all year had he been given the chance.

And I love how you can say the bolded while Kyrie consistently saw 30+ minutes every single game even though he was our worst defender and showed the least amount of effort early on, on the entire team. Your post is contradictory. He put in little/no effort and he acted entitled yet he still saw his big minutes and starting role every night.

All in all, yes, Brown made progress. No one can deny that. The problem many have, including myself, is how long it took Mike Brown to correct rotational and other rudimentary mistakes that led to the improved play we saw in the 2nd half of the season. Had our 25 million dollar coach corrected these mistakes many posters had been complaining of earlier on, we would most likely still be playing right now instead of fishing.

You should probably look these things up before you make blanket statements and assume you are correct. (Who needs stats though right? They are so useless)

Dion got more consistent playing time because Brown's attempt at "breaking" Dion once he decided to do it finally started to bear fruit, not sure what people are missing about that.

From October through December Dion was averaging 28-31 minutes a game (starters minutes).

From Janurary through Feburary Dion's minutes were cut to between 24-27

Dion was getting close the same amount of minutes over the first 3 months of this season (give or take 2-3 minutes a game) that he was from March on. If your arguement was "he would have performed like this from the start of the season if given consistent minutes" in an attempt at blaming Brown for it not happening earlier is one that it is blantaly false once you look at the numbers (monthly splits) because Dion was in fact getting close to or over 30 minutes a game for the first 2.5 to 3 months of the season.

It wasn't until 2 months after Brown started to cut Dion's minutes that things began to click for him, which is obvious once you look at the splits on the season.

You're last paragraph is abusrd, he didn't have a complete set of peices until the moves for Deng and Hawes were made along with the subtraction of Bynum. The team as currently constructed is still missing at least a 1 spot up shooter and a rim protector at this stage.

People want to kill him for rotational mistakes (which he does make from time to time but name me a coach that doesn't) but some of those "mistakes" were caused by the person who assembled the roster and not Brown himself. This seems to be something peopel ignore when they discuss the first part of the season along with the overall youth of the roster.

You have to play the hand you're dealt and Brown did pretty well considering the utter failure of the Bynum expirement, youth and the chemistry issues this caused the team. This goes hand and hand with Brown challenging the young players and holding them accountable which damaged some ego's in the process. This was probably the first time a lot of the young players have ever been challenged by a coach or held accountable for their play. It's going to cause a temporary setback and piss some of those players off but it needs to be done for the players to reach thier maximum potential, similar to horse racers "breaking" their thoroughbreds.

 

[Kizzle]

What I do expect this offseason is for Mikey to bring in good defenders. May not agree with Mike but he runs a hard ship on D. May have to sacrifice youth but ill happily do it if it means getting back the days where we still won games shooting horribly because our D was so monster

 

[Kizzle]

But Miami actually has a pretty elaborate half court offense. They run plays and they're pretty effective.

There's going to come a time when you won't have the opportunity to score in transition and your defense won't create scoring opportunities. Plays are needed to generate offense when the easy options are taken away.

With that many intelligent vets you can do so damn much its not even funny. Not just intelligent but CAPABLE. That team is a coaches dream

 

[abraxas]

Time for a Thibodeau safari?

 

[Cashius X]

Time for a Thibodeau safari?

No. He would kill Kyrie and Dion. Run them right into the ground.

 

[Ohio]

Kyrie would quit on Thibs in the first week of the season.

 

[Lyric]

I don't understand why the Cavaliers went and rehired Mike Brown. He was only good because of LeBron, without LeBron he is exposed. Just like Phil Jackson without MJ, KOBE, SHAQ, he's nothing.