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Paying College Athletes/Letting Them Get Endorsements

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My understanding the labor law creates a huge workman's comp issue with the injuries, which honestly they should. The NCAA and NFL and other leagues have been getting away for years not taking care of health issues that came about from the time these athletes played sports. Never mind the huge concussion issue in football, just lifetime knee injuries and such,.

Sure, and I certainly see the argument for the pros so lets just limit it to college.

First, there's the threshold question of exactly which college athletes are going to be considered employees, and so covered by workers comp., minimum wage, etc.. I don't think you can get away with saying that only the (overwhelmingly male) football players get those protections. Right? So who gets covered? Lots of sports include the possibility of ripping out a knee, etc...


As for profit, the athletic department as a whole doesnt make money in most schools (Purdue i can proudly say funds its athletics 100% through the athletic department, one of 13 schools as of about 5 years ago)....but some programs like football and men's basketball profit greatly and help fund the other title IX sports.

True, and this is really the critical point that I think generally gets overlooked -- that the vast majority of college athletic departments are in the red already. That's without having to pick up any of these other costs relating to making them all employees. That's wages, employer-side taxes (Social Security, Medicare, etc.), and those workers compensation premiums are likely to be absolutely enormous because there really isn't any analogous profession with similar risks of injury, or "experience" as it is called in the WC world. So if we add all those costs into it, we know that means we're putting all those athletic departments further into the red by a significant amount.

So....what is going to be the likely response of many colleges to those changed ground rules, and does anyone benefit from that? And just to make something clear, people who are considered employees under the law are not permitted to "opt-out" of that classification, or to waive rights to workers comp, etc..
 
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The case that SCOTUS addressed wasn't a labor law case -- it was an antitrust case. There is a labor case working its way through the Third Circuit where a lower court judge held that student athletes are "employees" under the Fair Labor Standards Act. It's been appealed and argued to the Third Circuit but I don't think they've decided yet. Two other Circuits have held that they are not employees, so if the Third comes down differently, it'll go to the Supreme Court. I do think the Third Circuit will reject the employee claim, though.

Personally, I think being considered employees would be a disaster for the vast majority of college athletes but hey, they're entitled to advocate for it if they wish. I would just add that as a matter of principle, I don't see why the exact same arguments shouldn't apply to high school athletes as well.

I'm curious as to where you stand on the question of whether NCAA athletes should be considered employees or not. All? Some? None?

As Jay Bilas argues in the tweet I’ll post in this response, the NCAA is staring at a freight train coming down the tracks in the form of this anti-trust case they are destined to get tagged in, for billions in damages.


It’s not a question of which athletes are employees of the university, it’s a question of how the contracts for these employees should be structured in compliance with the law.

If minimum wage is the fair market value for women’s soccer, so be it. Let the market set value for the top players, be it monetary value or equivalent akin to the college scholarship model we’re currently in.



I'm not sure the context in which you mean "profit", but almost all schools are literally non-profit, and the vast majority of athletic departments run in the red. If you mean "profit" in the sense of "athletics are part of an overall school environments that attracts more kids to attend the school, and that benefits the schools", then sure. Although that applies to libraries, student centers, etc..

The NCAA is paying the damages, not the schools.

They are profiting from the free labor of these kids. Not paying their tuition, their room and board. Nothing.



The increased sophistication of players and agents made this Wild West situation inevitable -- there is nothing the schools really could have done to prevent things from getting to this point because it was and is in the interests of the highest-end athletes to push for NiL's and player movement. The more they fight the "wild west situation", the more they'll open themselves up to potential lawsuits, etc.. There isn't a "middle ground" on which you are ever going to get universal agreement, so it is always going to come down to the law.

I personally see this as a no-win situation for the schools/NCAA. I think letting it all go to shit and saying "well, if this is what Congress and the courts want, this is what you get", is probably the best alternative they have.

Allowing players to sign contracts with these schools, with the inclusion of a “buyout” clause (similar to coaches), does seem like the model which makes the most sense for this NCAA system to survive.

Schools want to pay top players and amateurs should be free to earn what money is available in a free market.

If you want to transfer, the new school picks up your buyout.



Sports are about the hard work and merit, be the best and you can achieve.

Bilas makes a ton of great points here:
 
If all college athletes are classified as employees by the Federal Government (via courts or statute) that will make many programs cost prohibitive. I’d expect to see a lot of schools eliminate athletics which would please a lot of academics but not students or fans of the sports.

Are high school kids employees? There have been high school games on TV (notably LeBron).

Note that this entire discussion is not driven by the courts but by the existing Federal antitrust and labor statutes (which the courts interpret). Those can be altered by Congress in the future, and if college athletics becomes a complete shitshow then there will be political pressure to set up some structure for college student athletes that is workable.

Also note that the existence of many of the top sports schools was driven by a federal statute passed in the mid nineteenth century that created land grant colleges. Every state has one. They’re mostly public institutions.
 
Are high school kids employees? There have been high school games on TV (notably LeBron).

You’re losing sight of the point here.

The schools can pay kids and will continue to do so in the form of compensation (scholarship value + market value if applicable).

High school games being broadcasted is not the same as conferences like the SEC netting $100 million per year via a TV deal the NCAA has financial rights over.



Those can be altered by Congress in the future, and if college athletics becomes a complete shitshow then there will be political pressure to set up some structure for college student athletes that is workable.

The NCAA, in their desperate hope to keep this grift alive for the sake of profiting as much as possible without sharing without compensating athletes, is begging Congress for an anti-trust exemption in spite of SCOTUS and anyone with two eyes readily identifying that this model is profiting from free labor.
 
You’re losing sight of the point here.

The schools can pay kids and will continue to do so in the form of compensation (scholarship value + market value if applicable).

High school games being broadcasted is not the same as conferences like the SEC netting $100 million per year via a TV deal the NCAA has financial rights over.





The NCAA, in their desperate hope to keep this grift alive for the sake of profiting as much as possible without sharing without compensating athletes, is begging Congress for an anti-trust exemption in spite of SCOTUS and anyone with two eyes readily identifying that this model is profiting from free labor.

The NCAA negotiates conference TV contracts and collects the revenue?

I thought Notre Dame for example negotiated their own contract but it’s possible I’m wrong about that.

As far as classifying student athletes as employees or not that has nothing to do with antitrust or the amount of revenue. It’s not as if SEC are employees and MAC is no5 based on revenue. That’s not how the law works.

Jay Bills thinks contracts solve everything. That may work for Ohio State and Alabama football. I don’t see how that works for volleyball at a MAC school or football at Kenyon College.
 
The NCAA negotiates conference TV contracts and collects the revenue?

I thought Notre Dame for example negotiated their own contract but it’s possible I’m wrong about that.

As far as classifying student athletes as employees or not that has nothing to do with antitrust or the amount of revenue. It’s not as if SEC are employees and MAC is no5 based on revenue. That’s not how the law works.

Jay Bills thinks contracts solve everything. That may work for Ohio State and Alabama football. I don’t see how that works for volleyball at a MAC school or football at Kenyon College.

NCAA signs new $920M TV deal with ESPN​


How does it not work for volleyball and the MAC?

Compensation can be the value of a scholarship, it’s up to the students and schools to determine fair market value in accordance with the law.
 
As Jay Bilas argues in the tweet I’ll post in this response, the NCAA is staring at a freight train coming down the tracks in the form of this anti-trust case they are destined to get tagged in, for billions in damages.


Agreed -- the NCAA is screwed at this point if that's the way the law is going to be interpreted. But that's really in the past at this point because the NiL policy now is different from what it was when the case was filed, and it's likely that the remaining restrictions will be removed as well to avoid future liability.

It’s not a question of which athletes are employees of the university, it’s a question of how the contracts for these employees should be structured in compliance with the law.

I disagree -- that's a huge question. Probably the biggest one. Because if the answer to that is "all", then a whole lot of college sports becomes immediately unaffordable for schools. So how was the NCAA supposed to make that determination in the absence of clear legal guidance?

If minimum wage is the fair market value for women’s soccer, so be it. Let the market set value for the top players, be it monetary value or equivalent akin to the college scholarship model we’re currently in.

First, I assume you're saying that the value of a scholarship can be considered as minimum wage (full-ride scholarships are much more than that), which does make sense. But that only applies to college athletes on full-ride scholarships already, and more than 98% of college athletes don't receive even a partial scholarship. So if all college athletes are to be considered employees, that means all of those folks who the market said weren't even worth a partial athletic scholarship now have to be paid minimum wage, plus all the necessary employer-side withholdings, plus workers comp premiums (likely to be astronomical for many college athletes). These are all for athletes whose actual market value may literally be zero.

Where is all that money going to come from when the vast majority of athletic departments are in the red already? Is your position that if those sports don't make enough money to pay those kids minimum wage, they should just shut down? It's this issue that is why I asked "which athletes are employees" right at the beginning.

Second, in terms of "let the market set value for the top players", Title IX won't permit that. Whatever a player's market value is, he's only going to get half of that because the payment has to be split with someone without that value. Now if you want to get rid of Title IX for direct payments to athletes, I'm fine with that. But I don't think that's happening.

The NCAA is paying the damages, not the schools.

Past damages, for NiL, or for past antitrust violations, yes. But if you're talking about future direct payments to students moving forward, than all those payments will come from the schools themselves, so you have to know where that money is coming from.

Allowing players to sign contracts with these schools, with the inclusion of a “buyout” clause (similar to coaches), does seem like the model which makes the most sense for this NCAA system to survive.

What if a player wants to play, but doesn't want to sign a contract? The reason I ask that is that I doubt many schools are going to want to be paying football players six and seven figure payments just to play ball. I'm sure some football programs within those schools will want to, and maybe some athletic departments as a whole, but I suspect that would be a huge problem for the universities themselves. Especially for a lot of the state schools that aren't going to be able to justify taxpayer dollars going to kids to play ball. "We're going to pay some kid $1,000,000 taxpayer dollars to play ball rather than upgrade the dorm rooms for all the other students" isn't going to be popular.

So what I think is going to happen is that for the top talent, the NiL money is always going to dwarf the direct payments. In which case, a lot of those players will prefer to keep their options open by not signing contracts with schools. On the flip side, if you say that any kid playing even for minimum wage must sign a contract...doesn't that make them worse off than they are today in terms of freedom of movement?

Bilas makes a ton of great points here:

I'll just say that I think Bilas has "Power 5 conference football blinders" on, and hasn't thought through what this would actually mean if implemented at all levels of college athletics. If he's making a legal argument, then you can't just restrict it to Power 5 conference football...unless you're advocating that Congress pass legislation to that effect defining which sports/programs/schools are covered, and which aren't.

High school games being broadcasted is not the same as conferences like the SEC netting $100 million per year via a TV deal the NCAA has financial rights over.

No disrespect intended, but I think you have on the same kind of blinders as Bilas - thinking of the impact on major college football programs without considering the rule is much broader than that. Legally speaking, what is the difference between fans paying to attend a Buckeyes game, and fans paying to see the Massillon Tigers? What's the existing legal distinction that makes them not employees, but Power 5 football players are? How about the college athletes in Division III? Minimum wage, employer taxes (and liability), workers comp....all required?

If we're going down this road, then schools need clear legal guidance from either Congress or the courts. And the NCAA can't provide that because most colleges aren't even part of the NCAA at all.
 
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NCAA signs new $920M TV deal with ESPN​


How does it not work for volleyball and the MAC?

Compensation can be the value of a scholarship, it’s up to the students and schools to determine fair market value in accordance with the law.

Just pointing out that the NCAA deal does not cover Division I football. The schools/conferences control that.
 
I disagree -- that's a huge question. Probably the biggest one. Because if the answer to that is "all", then a whole lot of college sports becomes immediately unaffordable for schools. So how was the NCAA supposed to make that determination in the absence of clear legal guidance?

How?

They're already providing them value in the form of scholarship dollars.

That seems like it can continue as fair compensation for services rendered by employees, so long as they're not cut out of additional revenue streams like TV deals or NIL.


What if a player wants to play, but doesn't want to sign a contract? The reason I ask that is that I doubt many schools are going to want to be paying football players six and seven figure payments just to play ball. I'm sure some football programs within those schools will want to, and maybe some athletic departments as a whole, but I suspect that would be a huge problem for the universities themselves. Especially for a lot of the state schools that aren't going to be able to justify taxpayer dollars going to kids to play ball. "We're going to pay some kid $1,000,000 taxpayer dollars to play ball rather than upgrade the dorm rooms for all the other students" isn't going to be popular.

So what I think is going to happen is that for the top talent, the NiL money is always going to dwarf the direct payments. In which case, a lot of those players will prefer to keep their options open by not signing contracts with schools. On the flip side, if you say that any kid playing even for minimum wage must sign a contract...doesn't that make them worse off than they are today in terms of freedom of movement?

All athletes sign agreements with their university in one form or another, I don't think that process will change and I don't really see a workaround for any current athlete that doesn't sign some form of a contract with their school of choice.

Its clear that schools do want to pay top players and they've shown the ability to build infrastructure, secure donation and fundraise off this premise.

Schools below the threshold of paying for top talent still have a huge pool of talent to choose from to build a program, with the knowledge that players aren't finished products out of high school with growth and progression that allows them to build a top program.


To your point about taking from school resources to fund is valid, I think there is a ton of work to be done on where that money comes from and the limits on which players can be paid. Likely dependent on payments to conference from TV rights deals, plus NIL collective funds.
 
How?

They're already providing them value in the form of scholarship dollars....

As I said, more than 98% of college athletes do not receive scholarships of any kind. So those would all be additional costs for more than 50 times as many athletes as currently receive scholarships.

All athletes sign agreements with their university in one form or another, I don't think that process will change and I don't really see a workaround for any current athlete that doesn't sign some form of a contract with their school of choice.

But if that was true, why wouldn't schools already be doing that to prevent player movement? It seems like it would be an extraordinarily easy "out" for them if what you're saying is correct. Just to make all incoming players on scholarship sign a contract saying they cannot leave that school as long as they are offered that scholarship. Problem solved.

The fact that they aren't even trying to do that is a pretty good indication they can't.

I could guess at two reasons off the top of my head: 1) antitrust issues, and 2) some states would almost certainly pass laws rendering such agreements unenforceable, and/or various states court judges would do the same. What you're describing are basically the same as non-compete agreements, which California as a matter of state public policy does not recognize as enforceable.

For example, let's say some kid signs a contract such as you are describing with Rutgers. He then decides to break that contract and transfer to USC to play ball there. Rutgers has no way to enforce that contract and prevent him from playing for USC, and if the NCAA tried to enforce it by punishing USC, that would be a "restraint of trade", and a violation of antitrust laws.

Also, a judge has now struck down the NiL restrictions that do exist. So now, there aren't any:

 
Because SCOTUS has explicitly said that their model is illegal in any other form within the boundaries of labor laws in this country.

They exist (supposedly) for the student athletes, yet their model is designed to take advantage of them and profit from their labor.

The NCAA's lack of action and interest in prioritizing the economic rights of athletes is precisely why this wound up being the wild west situation they're currently in.

Just to kind of add to what you said, I think what people forget is the original case that happened a couple of years ago that set all of this in motion. It was the Alston case over education benefits for athletes.


The NCAA threw a ton of effort and money into defending this case, because they knew that if they lost this case they effectively did not have the resources or the grounds to further fight and defeat other cases brought against them regarding the rights of student athletes.

When they lost this case, the NCAA had to pay a significant amount to student athletes in damages dating back to 2018 and also had to cover something in the neighborhood of $20 Mill in lawyer fees (if I remember correctly). They fought this case so hard because it set the precedent that the NCAA has been violating anti-trust laws.

Some of this I’m pulling from memory so the details are a bit blurry, but basically how it was explained to me from my friend that worked for PSU and has worked on several levels of the sports business in college and NFL is that once this decision was made, the NCAA can do little to challenge any further cases athletes brought against them.
 
If I understand the NCAA’s position correctly, schools cannot afford to pay athletes, but can only afford to give them the value of tuition, room and board and cover all fees to play sports at the university.


The NCAA can sell the rights to their games for hundreds of millions while providing them nothing, because they’re “amateurs.”
 
Just to kind of add to what you said, I think what people forget is the original case that happened a couple of years ago that set all of this in motion. It was the Alston case over education benefits for athletes.


The NCAA threw a ton of effort and money into defending this case, because they knew that if they lost this case they effectively did not have the resources or the grounds to further fight and defeat other cases brought against them regarding the rights of student athletes.

When they lost this case, the NCAA had to pay a significant amount to student athletes in damages dating back to 2018 and also had to cover something in the neighborhood of $20 Mill in lawyer fees (if I remember correctly). They fought this case so hard because it set the precedent that the NCAA has been violating anti-trust laws.

Some of this I’m pulling from memory so the details are a bit blurry, but basically how it was explained to me from my friend that worked for PSU and has worked on several levels of the sports business in college and NFL is that once this decision was made, the NCAA can do little to challenge any further cases athletes brought against them.


That's pretty much correct. Unless the NCAA had lifted all restrictions on player compensation and player movement on its own, it was always going to be at the mercy of courts if someone really wanted to push it.

The biggest problem is that for the NCAA to work, there has to be uniformity in what is permitted and what isn't. But there are literally thousands of different courts, and both a state and federal system, and of course states can pass their own laws like California did. You can't always appeal decisions of state court to the Supreme Court, and not all state laws can be challenged in federal courts. What that means is that the NCAA really has to win every case, because if it loses even one, the uniformity necessary for sports is destroyed because the NCAA will essentially have to abide by whatever decision restricts it the most. And the massive risk for the NCAA at this point is that if it tries to adopt some restrictions and loses, it could be liable for massive damages.

So, the idea that the NCAA can really manage/control things at this point isn't correct. The only alternatives at this point are either 1) the NCAA flies the white flag, and there is a complete free-for all with no compensation or player movement restrictions at all, or 2) Congressional legislation that would pre-empt state laws.

And forgetting the NCAA itself for a moment, there is still the issue for each individual school as to whether or not student athletes must be treated as employees, because it will be the schools, not the NCAA, that will be on the hook for any damages.

***as an aside, the Third Circuit case is a bit unusual in that the plaintiffs are claiming that student athletes actually are employees of the NCAA. I think that's one reason the NCAA is likely to win that case, but that still leaves open separate claims against schools. I do think you need clear federal law on that, though states should be free to establish their own rules regarding employee status under state law.
 
If I understand the NCAA’s position correctly, schools cannot afford to pay athletes, but can only afford to give them the value of tuition, room and board and cover all fees to play sports at the university.


Again, that is part of the NCAA's argument only with respect to scholarship athletes. But the larger question of whether or not student athletes are employees applies to non-scholarship athletes as well, because even non-scholarship athletes may well be playing in sports that generate at least some revenue. Presumably, you could have a rule saying that only scholarship athletes are employees, though that would create the rather weird situation of players on the same team engaging in the exact same activities, with some having employee protections and others not.

But either way, I think it is an abrogation of Congressional responsibility for Congress to not address this. They need to have some balls and pass some clear legislation one way or the other so that schools know what they are supposed to do. It's bullshit to just leave it up to courts to figure it out on their own without guidance, then trying to hold colleges liable for backpay when there wasn't any clear requirement to treat them as employees in the first place.

But, my guess is that Congress won't act unless and until there is a conflict between the federal circuits on that issue. Because as of right now, the only two circuits to have ruled on this have determined they are not employees.


The NCAA can sell the rights to their games for hundreds of millions while providing them nothing, because they’re “amateurs.”

I completely understand your argument, and it is a pretty good one as applied to things like major college football. But the problem is that as things now stand, it could also apply to very minor college football, and also to any minor sport. Wrestling, field hockey, gymnastics, etc.. That may be a valid basis on which to draw a distinction as to whether or not a student athlete is an "employee", but that's exactly why you need Congress to pass legislation that actually makes that clear distinction.
 
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Again, that is part of the NCAA's argument only with respect to scholarship athletes. But the larger question of whether or not student athletes are employees applies to non-scholarship athletes as well. Presumably, you could have a rule saying that only scholarship athletes are employees, though that would create the rather weird situation of players on the same team engaging in the exact same activities, with some having employee protections and others not. But either way, I think it is an abrogation of Congressional responsibility for Congress to not address this. They need to have some balls and pass some clear legislation one way or the other so that schools know what they are supposed to do. It's bullshit to just leave it up to courts to figure it out on their own without guidance, then trying to hold colleges liable for backpay when there wasn't any clear requirement to treat them as employees in the first place.

But, my guess is that Congress won't act unless and until there is a conflict between the federal circuits on that issue. Because as of right now, the only two circuits to have ruled on this have determined they are not employees.

If this is the case, eliminate the ncaa entirely because they serve absolutely zero purpose if they’re abdicating the oversight and enforcement responsibilities.

Effectively waving the white flag if they can’t grift off the hard work of student athletes is among the most fitting endings for the body I can imagine.


It’s never been about the kids, it was always about the dollars they could hoard form their labor.
 

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