The 2021 Cleveland Baseball Organization

[sportscoach]

Just to be clear--I still think you're on the same path as the previous statement.

A consensus or majority is not and should not be required to do the right thing.

I'll leave the "people like you" comment alone.

If you haven't heard people have a problem with the name, what do you think that says? To me, that doesn't say anything about the name, or the problems people have with it--it just tells us more about the specific bubble you live in.

The Wahoo caricature is part of the team's history. Yeah, it's been changed, but that's always going to be a part of the Indians--and why the name is going to be changed, while other names like the Braves and Chiefs, which more or less pay homage and represent their communities in a positive light, won't be.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I don't think switching to a better representation is viable--just like how the Washington Football Team isn't going to change to a name representative of indigenous people. Best to make a clean break.

I refuse to accept your statement that changing the team name is the same as dismissing the people. Those are not equivalent, and it's just inflammatory rhetoric designed to make an emotional appeal.

And, while we're on the topic of eschewing reasonable discussion in favor of emotional appeal, I never "told you what your thoughts and intentions were following a team name." I guess we're both in agreement that that's something that won't happen!

They have been protesting both the Braves and the Chiefs just as much as the Indians. Even the Seminoles are being protested even though their is an agreement with the Seminole nation to use their name (They are even going after car names)... Though we don't need to go farther in that. I do hope they draw the line in the sand and say that's as far as we go changing the names of sports teams...

 

[Juice is Loose]

FWIW - Meisel and Jason Lloyd have been teasing an article on ownership since last year. This better live up to the hype.

 

[BMAN]

Wait people are still pissed about CC and Cliff Lee? Jesus Christ let it go. It’s been over 10 years for both.

 

[AZ_]

Wait people are still pissed about CC and Cliff Lee? Jesus Christ let it go. It’s been over 10 years for both.

Time proved their asinine logic wrong, the players they were dealt for are nearly all retired, yet the narratives persist.

 

[CDAV45]

Do I think people's vitriolic reaction to the name change of the stadium and the vitriolic reaction to the name change of the team are similar?

Yes.

I think they're both emotional, reactionary takes to the fact that things are going to change, and they don't like it.

Are they perfectly equal? Of course not--but that's not what comparable means.

I expect that the reaction to the team name change will take longer to fizzle out than the stadium name change. You know there's going to be some asshole downtown in a headdress and the most Wahoo gear he can muster.

Vitriolic? Forgive me if your reaction seems the same to me.

Again, you're missing my point, which may not be the same as the majority. I don't care about the name change, it's the accusations behind it that I won't accept.

Yeah, there probably will be some asshole downtown with all the gear. Probably the same asshole that's protested the name outside the stadium since I can remember.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Really

Lindor, Bauer, Clevinger, Sabathia, Lee.
Had we not been in contention, Ramirez and Thome probably would have been traded and not just allowed to walk away.

Not touching Sabathia and Lee because, honestly, get over it.

Bauer - made it known with a few years of arbitration left that he is just going to sign short-term high yearly contracts for the remainder of his career, so they never even approached him on an extension. What would be the better plan? He wasn't going to sign an extension, he literally told the world that and then went out and signed a high yearly deal with year end opt-outs.

Clevinger - there was an extension on the table for him and it was close to done, probably would have been completed over this past winter/spring...then him and Plesac broke Covid protocols which broke the camel's back on a lot of off the field issues they had with Clev in his time here and the offer was pulled and he was traded. Teammates literally threatened to walk out on the season if the Indians brought back those 2 guys. Gave him 1 start to show teams he was healthy after that shit show and he was gone.

Lindor - already been stated in here enough. They offered him what would have been at the time the largest pre-arbitration extension in MLB history the winter between the 16 and 17 seasons, he declined it. He bet on himself and won, but the Indians were bridging the gap on his contract prior to Covid putting in the death knell on that situation. Covid never happens and there is a good chance Frankie is extended in Cleveland, but that's not what happened. Still TBD on this one though.

Over the past decade, when the Indians have approached someone to sign an extension and have been all in, they have missed 1 time. Brantley, Carrasco, Kipnis, Kluber, Gomes, Perez, Ramirez, Santana have all signed extensions with the Indians within the last decade. Only one that said no was offered a historically expensive contract for how little of a track record he had at the time and it was a gamble that paid off for him, good for him.

The straw for the fans that bring up "trades because we can't sign people" was broke back in the 90s and early 00s so it doesn't matter to them how they operate now, even though recent history has them retaining their guys considerably more than letting them walk or trading them away. It is just an excuse to drag us away from the fact that Cleveland doesn't give a rats ass about going to baseball games right now. They'll watch, but they won't go.

 

[LL3]

The straw for the fans that bring up "trades because we can't sign people" was broke back in the 90s and early 00s so it doesn't matter to them how they operate now, even though recent history has them retaining their guys considerably more than letting them walk or trading them away. It is just an excuse to drag us away from the fact that Cleveland doesn't give a rats ass about going to baseball games right now. They'll watch, but they won't go.

Agree with all you wrote as to the players…those extended and those not, but do wonder about your last statement….

Do you have to attend games to truly support the team? Stating the obvious - that is a bad model. I was a season ticket holder (full) for nearly a decade….life changes, now I go to a few games a year, but watch or listen near religiously. i would certainly pay to watch if I had to do so, but am not rushing to get there, either. I buy some apparel every year.

I hope people continue to have the option to attend games at the ballpark in Cleveland , but also hope MLB can begin to operate on a model that is not so dependent on game day attendance.

 

[Derek]

Agree with all you wrote as to the players…those extended and those not, but do wonder about your last statement….

Do you have to attend games to truly support the team? Stating the obvious - that is a bad model. I was a season ticket holder (full) for nearly a decade….life changes, now I go to a few games a year, but watch or listen near religiously. i would certainly pay to watch if I had to do so, but am not rushing to get there, either. I buy some apparel every year.

I hope people continue to have the option to attend games at the ballpark in Cleveland , but also hope MLB can begin to operate on a model that is not so dependent on game day attendance.

You most certainly do not have to go to games to be a true fan.

The issue is there are many people out there who continuously act like attendance would go up if the team did this or that, when in reality, it’s not true. It’s already been proven to be untrue.

 

[eChameleon]

FWIW - Meisel and Jason Lloyd have been teasing an article on ownership since last year. This better live up to the hype.

I can only wonder if something is actually going to be announced next week, and The Athletic article is going to be a deep dive on the new minority owners. Or majority owners. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if they announce a new team name next week the day after the All Star game.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

i
The straw for the fans that bring up "trades because we can't sign people" was broke back in the 90s and early 00s so it doesn't matter to them how they operate now, even though recent history has them retaining their guys considerably more than letting them walk or trading them away. It is just an excuse to drag us away from the fact that Cleveland doesn't give a rats ass about going to baseball games right now. They'll watch, but they won't go.

That's true. Cleveland will ONLY support winning baseball. Period. End of story.
The Golden Age of Cleveland baseball was when Jacobs Field was new in the 90's. Critics will say that's only because the Browns were gone. But at the same time we were one of the legendary teams of MLB. And we were sold out.
A more recent example was 2017. This was the bump after the AL Championship of 2016. In 2017 we ranked #22 in average attendance in all of MLB. Not great. But it's about what you get for our market size. The Indians are always very aggressive in marketing the team to the fans.
I see 2022 as a post-covid chance at rebuilding. Build a winning team, with fresh stars to replace Frankie. Build a roster to compete with a healthy White Sox roster.

 

[eChameleon]

I think the best attendance we can hope for, outside of opening day, is something like what we got for the series against the Mariners once 100% capacity was allowed. Something in the low 20,000's. Which is perfectly fine!

But that's also why I wish they would have knocked down the entire third deck in right field, and really open up some views to the city. Knock it down to the concourse on the second level, and expand The Corner bar to that area. Hell, I'm sure they could even remove some sections from the third deck down the 3rd base line.

 

[sportscoach]

That's true. Cleveland will ONLY support winning baseball. Period. End of story.
The Golden Age of Cleveland baseball was when Jacobs Field was new in the 90's. Critics will say that's only because the Browns were gone. But at the same time we were one of the legendary teams of MLB. And we were sold out.
A more recent example was 2017. This was the bump after the AL Championship of 2016. In 2017 we ranked #22 in average attendance in all of MLB. Not great. But it's about what you get for our market size. The Indians are always very aggressive in marketing the team to the fans.
I see 2022 as a post-covid chance at rebuilding. Build a winning team, with fresh stars to replace Frankie. Build a roster to compete with a healthy White Sox roster.

Winning doesn't bring in the fans, no team has had more wins than the Indians since Francona has been the manager... There isn't any ifs, ands or buts about it...

 

[southernflyer]

I think greater entertainment options as a whole as well as higher ticket prices will decrease in person major sporting event attendance in the future while consumer electronics are more accessible. Twenty years ago we could not readily watch MLB games on the internet, a tablet or our cell phone. I checked a Friday night game, lower reserve for a family of four. $61 each through StubHub, add parking, some food, a couple beers and a souvenir for the kid and you are looking at $350-400 easily. You do that twice and you can buy a 65" 4K hdtv and a MLB At Bat package, if you don't get it free through T-Mobile, while using the tv for the next few years.

You also have the Crushers, Akron and Lake County teams within an hour's drive, and less for most of the population who would be heading downtown to see the Indians. You also watch any of those games for 1/4 of the price.

 

[33Y0]

I think greater entertainment options as a whole as well as higher ticket prices will decrease in person major sporting event attendance in the future while consumer electronics are more accessible. Twenty years ago we could not readily watch MLB games on the internet, a tablet or our cell phone. I checked a Friday night game, lower reserve for a family of four. $61 each through StubHub, add parking, some food, a couple beers and a souvenir for the kid and you are looking at $350-400 easily. You do that twice and you can buy a 65" 4K hdtv and a MLB At Bat package, if you don't get it free through T-Mobile, while using the tv for the next few years.

You also have the Crushers, Akron and Lake County teams within an hour's drive, and less for most of the population who would be heading downtown to see the Indians. You also watch any of those games for 1/4 of the price.

Me, personally, I love going to minor league games. Super affordable, a fun time, get to see a lot of great prospects... and I'll catch maybe only 1-3 games in Cleveland a year because they're too damn expensive. That said, I still watch a vast majority of games from the comfort of my home.

 

[buzzdog]

I love this particular team. Yes there are holes in the roster and the injury bug has hit pretty hard. But they've mostly been very fun to watch and follow, more so than most seasons.