The Military Thread

[Sebastian]

I'm curious too, I've seen so much on WWII, but WWI; I have a lot of room to learn on and this movie looks amazing. If it's educational on the same level, that's just all the better.

WWI is a great example of how blundering leaders can drag their nations into a stupid war, and that sometimes no one can prevent it from happening.

Ultimately, tens of millions died over ludicrous nationalism... setting the stage for even more stupidity and death twenty years later.

I recommend everyone read a biography on Kaiser Wilhelm II. He, more than any single individual set the stage for the war, and then was the one man who could have prevented its outbreak.

Understanding him, and therefore Imperial Germany, goes a long way into understanding how and why it all went down.

The man was a paradox and it greatly effected the policy of the strongest power on Earth, giving it a schizophrenic flavor that made it a wild card amidst a very tense international scene.

 

[Blink]

I was struck by how much geopolitical modernization occurred as a result of the war. It was still very much the era of Kings/empires going into the war. Pre-war Europe looked far more like Napoleon's era than it did postwar Europe.

 

[Phills14]

Still haven't seen 1917.

For those that have, did you learn anything new about WWI?

I think the Eastern Front needs more attention. While the Western Front was simple murder, crazy things were going on in the East.

Like Romania declaring war and immediately admitting they've made a huge mistake, only to be saved in the very nick of time.

The Romanian Campaign Plan (The "Z" Hypothesis) consisted in attacking Austria-Hungary in Transylvania, while defending Southern Dobruja and Giurgiu from Bulgaria in the south. Despite initial successes in Transylvania, after German divisions started aiding Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria, the Romanian forces (aided by Russia) suffered massive setbacks, and by the end of 1916 out of the territory of the Romanian Old Kingdom only Western Moldavia remained under the control of the Romanian and Russian armies.

After several defensive victories in 1917 at Mărăști, Mărășești and Oituz, with Russia's withdrawal from the war following the October Revolution, Romania, almost completely surrounded by the Central Powers, was also forced to drop out of the war, it signed the Treaty of Bucharest with the Central Powers in May 1918. The parliament signed the treaty, however King Ferdinand refused to sign it hoping for an Allied victory on the western front. On 10 November 1918, just one day before the German armistice and after all the other Central Powers had already capitulated, Romania re-entered the war after the successful Allied advances on the Macedonian front.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_during_World_War_I

I want to see it bad!

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm curious too, I've seen so much on WWII, but WWI; I have a lot of room to learn on and this movie looks amazing. If it's educational on the same level, that's just all the better.

Just take a few hours and go see it. Definitely worth it, annd you absolutely must see it on the big screen. You're not going to really learn anything about the big picture stuff unless you're already going in with a decent knowledge of the western front. But the soldiers' eye view, and general themes of that front are portrayed very well.

 

[Joe Charboneau]

Just take a few hours and go see it. Definitely worth it, annd you absolutely must see it on the big screen. You're not going to really learn anything about the big picture stuff unless you're already going in with a decent knowledge of the western front. But the soldiers' eye view, and general themes of that front are portrayed very well.

Was it Saving Private Ryan good? World War 1 is like the lost war in Hollywood. I am 47 and i dont remember a movie being made about it until this one. Its Vietnam or World War 2. Did you happen to see Ken Burns Vietnam? Awesome. Nobody makes a documentary like him.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Was it Saving Private Ryan good? World War 1 is like the lost war in Hollywood. I am 47 and i dont remember a movie being made about it until this one. Its Vietnam or World War 2. Did you happen to see Ken Burns Vietnam? Awesome. Nobody makes a documentary like him.

I personally liked it more than Saving Private Ryan - I had an issue with Hank's last line in that movie that kind of ruined it for me, though the rest of the movie was great.

It doesn't have the same degree of mass, intense combat as does Saving Private Ryan - a lot of the movie involves them travelling through No-Man's land where there aren't a ton of troops, so the encounters tend to be smaller scale. But I thought it did a fantastic job of conveying the setting/tone of the war.

Loved Ken Burns' Vietnam.

By the way, if you want to see an incredible documentary on the true Forgotten War, and a particularly tragic, underreported battle,, watch Task Force Faith on Amazon Prime. I read the brilliant book from which it was taken, and was really looking forward to the documentary. It didn't disappoint in terms of quality. In terms of the story itself, it is one of the most heartbreaking ones in American military history.

@King Stannis

 

[Joe Charboneau]

Thanks for all the info. You didnt like " earn this" huh? I will check that doc out. I love most military documentarys and movies. Full Metal Jackets first hour being my fav of all of them. Defintely renting 1917 when available.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Thanks for all the info. You didnt like " earn this" huh?

Absolutely hated it. It was pretty much the most cruel thing Hanks' character could have said to Ryan -- basically saying that we all died because of you.

And I know the standard explanation is that the comment was supposedly directed to the audience. But that's just Hollywood bullshit spin. The audience wasn't in the movie - Ryan was. And we saw right at the end when -- immediately after that scene -- Ryan as an old man basically broke down asking his family if he was a good man. So it was clear as fuck to me that Ryan himself understood that it was directed at him, and had carried that burden with him his whole life.

Every single day, I think of the Marine I lost in the war. That is a heavy burden to carry around regardless, and it suggests to me that whomever wrote that line had no fucking idea what it is really like to lose someone you fought with. A monstrously cruel thing for Hank's character to have said in his dying breath.

 

[Sebastian]

I personally liked it more than Saving Private Ryan - I had an issue with Hank's last line in that movie that kind of ruined it for me, though the rest of the movie was great.

It doesn't have the same degree of mass, intense combat as does Saving Private Ryan - a lot of the movie involves them travelling through No-Man's land where there aren't a ton of troops, so the encounters tend to be smaller scale. But I thought it did a fantastic job of conveying the setting/tone of the war.

Loved Ken Burns' Vietnam.

By the way, if you want to see an incredible documentary on the true Forgotten War, and a particularly tragic, underreported battle,, watch Task Force Faith on Amazon Prime. I read the brilliant book from which it was taken, and was really looking forward to the documentary. It didn't disappoint in terms of quality. In terms of the story itself, it is one of the most heartbreaking ones in American military history.

@King Stannis

Recently read about this battle.

MacArthur's incompetence at not seeing the Chinese entry to the war is criminal. At that point he was half-way to the loony bin anyway.

And the total lunacy of Army Command in handling the first part of the battle. Instead of withdrawing TF-Faith, the idiot general wanted them to advance north!

That is what happens when generals lead from the rear.

I found this passage on the Wiki page on the battle heartening:

"At the inlet, the Chinese assault became a disaster as communications broke down, while devastating fire from the M16 and M19 anti-aircraft (AA) guns attached to the 57th Field Artillery Battalion swept the Chinese ranks..."

M16s were some bad mamajama. Quad .50 Cals. Ouffda. And M19s, dual 40mm Bofors. The bark bark bark of the Bofor: The Swedish Song of Death.

 

[Sebastian]

Every single day, I think of the Marine I lost in the war. That is a heavy burden to carry around regardless, and it suggests to me that whomever wrote that line had no fucking idea what it is really like to lose someone you fought with. A monstrously cruel thing for Hank's character to have said in his dying breath.

Yep.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Recently read about this battle.

MacArthur's incompetence at not seeing the Chinese entry to the war is criminal. At that point he was half-way to the loony bin anyway.

And the total lunacy of Army Command in handling the first part of the battle. Instead of withdrawing TF-Faith, the idiot general wanted them to advance north!

That is what happens when generals lead from the rear.

I found this passage on the Wiki page on the battle heartening:

"At the inlet, the Chinese assault became a disaster as communications broke down, while devastating fire from the M16 and M19 anti-aircraft (AA) guns attached to the 57th Field Artillery Battalion swept the Chinese ranks..."

M16s were some bad mamajama. Quad .50 Cals. Ouffda. And M19s, dual 40mm Bofors. The bark bark bark of the Bofor: The Swedish Song of Death.

Great weapons...until they ran out of ammo.

Roy Appleman's East of Chosin is one of the best military history books I've ever read. Very detailed, down to platoon level and sometimes below, but readable. Lots of bad luck, though as you suggest, MacArthur's arrogance was the biggest problem. Filtered down to the CG's of X Corps and 8th Army...just a disaster.

 

[Sebastian]

@The Human Q-Tip @Jordan

Gettysburg.

The charge of the 20th Maine.

But also Lee fighting his worst battle.

Taking a page out of Napoleon's book, he ordered a Grand Battery of over 100 guns to soften the Union center, followed by a mass attack to split the army. But, as Lee knew all too well, the defensive capabilities of troops armed with the rifled musket was far above anything Napoleon ever saw.

One wonders how Lee, student of Napoleon as he was, also failed to realize the advantage to the defender in the battle of the central position. Thanks to interior lines in a position shaped like an arc, the Union could reinforce any point in the line very quickly, and could close any gap well before Lee could redeploy his troops to consolidate and expand an opening.

As it was, Lee blundered by attacking with only one division, and didn't have another division, at least, as a follow-up to exploit the break in the Union line. Napoleon always called for the massed attack of the center by a Corps or more.

At Austerlitz Napoleon used a whole corps, Soult's corps, to take the Pratzen Heights, despite only handful of troops left to defend it. He then exploited this gap in the line with another full corps, Bernadotte's I Corps, to complete the split of the enemy army. Lee's attack was way understrength to achieve his goal.

Pickett's Charge was doomed before it even began and doomed even had it succeeded.

 

[Sebastian]

Don't remember if I put this somewhere else, but the talk of Karl XII led me to remember this lil gem. @The Human Q-Tip @BMAN

Napoleon meets his hero, Karl XII.

 

[Sebastian]

Karl XII meets a fellow Swedish king, Carl XIV Johan, who finds out that Karl XII has been hanging out with Napoleon.



But it is all good. When they talk about their common love: Beating the hell out of the Danes and conquering Norway.

 

[Sebastian]

Very cool ceremony welcoming home the remains of General Gudin.