Week 8 vs Raiders

[shoes22]

Listen to these drives by the Raiders

1st drive, 10 plays (missed FG)

3rd drive, 16 plays (FG)

4th drive, 12 plays (FG)

5th drive, 15 plays (TD)

6th drive, 13 plays (FG)

I guess the one thing you can credit the defense for is not allowing TDs on these long drives except one.

But when you literally can't get the other team off the field at any point and they have all of these long, time consuming drives, you're giving your offense very little chance to respond unless you force some turnovers. They didn't.

And apparently Myles was hobbled early, so he had to sit out a huge chunk of the game.

Our defense is so dependent on him we didn’t have a prayer after that.

 

[KIisKing]

I can’t post the tweet at the moment but the Brown’s offense had only 6 drives, the fewest by a team in 30 years. Something needs to budge with either the talent that the FO puts out there or the play calling. You have to give the offense as a chance.

 

[CBBI]

The one nitpicking thing I can say about today's game from a play calling perspective is that Stefanski was just a little too conservative because of the weather.

The Browns ran the football today on 2nd or 3rd and long seven times which is just too conservative.

I really think Stefanski thought the Browns would be the one dominating up front and the Raiders were more up to the challenge.

 

[Randolphkeys]

The defense has to generate turnovers to be successful. If they don’t, they are giving up points almost every time. That’s why I’m not sure being conservative is the right approach. Is there solace in giving up a 9 minute TD drive as opposed to a quicker score? Getting gouged for 5 or 6 yards every play and steadily marched on until everybody is gassed is basically what happened today.

Here's where I think the scheme and the execution need to be distinguished.

The linebackers on the field are supposed to be better against the run than the pass, aside from Malcolm Smith. How often did Jacobs and Booker go right through the front seven to get to Harrison, Sandejo, or one of the cornerbacks to make the tackles?

That is a matter of execution. The front seven were blown six yards off the ball. There is no play calling that changes the end result of terrible run defense execution.

 

[daddywags]

Here's where I think the scheme and the execution need to be distinguished.

The linebackers on the field are supposed to be better against the run than the pass, aside from Malcolm Smith. How often did Jacobs and Booker go right through the front seven to get to Harrison, Sandejo, or one of the cornerbacks to make the tackles?

That is a matter of execution. The front seven were blown six yards off the ball. There is no play calling that changes the end result of terrible run defense execution.

Our linebackers are awful. While everyone is berating Sendajo, Takitaki is invisible. He's almost never around the ball and, when he is on occasion, he whiffs or gets run over. I think Delpit and Harrison can handle the safety position next season but we desperately need at least one stud linebacker.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

People should watch our linebackers during those drives. If they weren’t filling the wrong hole, they were getting driven 8 yards downfield. It was truly a clinic in how to literally do nothing for every key drive LV had.

There is no way to scheme around an important position group (against the run) being this horrendous.

We've been hearing for years that linebackers aren't an important position group.

 

[CBBI]

We've been hearing for years that linebackers aren't an important position group.

LB isn’t as important as DL and secondary, but you can’t have absolute crap on the field anywhere or you’re in trouble.

That is the big issue for the Browns. They have a really bad LB unit compared to a merely average or slightly below average one.

To compound the problem the Browns also have weak spots on both the DL and in the secondary, which shines an even brighter light on how poor the linebackers actually are.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

LB isn’t as important as DL and secondary, but you can’t have absolute crap on the field anywhere or you’re in trouble.

That is the big issue for the Browns. They have a really bad LB unit compared to a merely average or slightly below average one.

Here's what happens:

Free agency rolls around, and someone says "we need linebackers!". The response is that linebackers are a devalued position, and that it doesn't make sense to spend significant money on linebackers in free agency.

Then the draft rolls around, and someone says "we need linebackers." And the response is "you can pretty much get the same quality of linebackers in the 3rd-5th round that you can get in the first and second, so it doesn't make sense to take linebackers high."

And that's the reasoning that explains how we end up with Mack Wilson and Takataka at linebacker. And it isn't like we didn't know this was coming -- Mack Wilson graded out at 41.8 on PFF last year, and coming into this season, he was considered the good one.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Here's what happens:

Free agency rolls around, and someone says "we need linebackers!". The response is that linebackers are a devalued position, and that it doesn't make sense to spend significant money on linebackers in free agency.

Then the draft rolls around, and someone says "we need linebackers." And the response is "you can pretty much get the same quality of linebackers in the 3rd-5th round that you can get in the first and second, so it doesn't make sense to take linebackers high."

And that's the reasoning that explains how we end up with Mack Wilson and Takataka at linebacker. And it isn't like we didn't know this was coming -- Mack Wilson graded out at 41.8 on PFF last year, and coming into this season, he was considered the good one.

The plan didn't work so far, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean it isn't sound logic.

If Wilson and Josh Phillips were healthy, the performance wouldnt have looked as bad. Takitaki looks like a bust. Goodson and Smith have been exactly who we thought they would be.

This is very like the situation last year at guard. The Browns invested in a few mid-round values to coach up. Corbett was a bust, but one of those guys stepped up big time... it just took an extra year.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

The plan didn't work so far, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean it isn't sound logic.

If Wilson and Josh Phillips were healthy, the performance wouldnt have looked as bad. Takitaki looks like a bust. Goodson and Smith have been exactly who we thought they would be.

Wilson was bad last year, and Phillips is an unproven late 3rd round pick who hadn't yet proven himself to be competent as an NFL linebacker even if he was healthy. Takitaki looked terrible last year. And if Goodson and Smith "have been exactly who we thought they would be"....isn't that exactly the problem with trying to fill huge holes on the cheap? We're shitty...and we knew we'd be shitty.

This is very like the situation last year at guard. The Browns invested in a few mid-round values to coach up. Corbett was a bust, but one of those guys stepped up big time... it just took an extra year.

Yes, but the rest of the OL was filled by a first round pick at LT, a Pro Bowl LG, an above average center, and a massive expenditure for a free agent right tackle. So we had that one hole to be filled on an otherwise above-average OL. To fill that one hole, we had a bunch of candidates, including some guys who had shown themselves to be at least competent at that position -- Teller, for example. And the OL had the excuse of having four guys opt out because of Covid, which isn't something that can fairly be blamed on the FO.

In contrast, we entered this season with two kinds of players to fill our linebacking corps: 1) unproven lottery tickets, and 2) below-average veterans. And -- stunning surprise -- our linebacking corps is putrid.

But if the strategy is sound logic, then wouldn't it be the smart move to do the exact same thing this offseason? Maybe get another LB somewhere in the 3rd-5th round, and get another veteran who is a backup at best?

 

[David.]

Wasn't able to watch.

Why weren't we able to run?

 

[Randolphkeys]

Wilson was bad last year, and Phillips is an unproven late 3rd round pick who hadn't yet proven himself to be competent as an NFL linebacker even if he was healthy. Takitaki looked terrible last year. And if Goodson and Smith "have been exactly who we thought they would be"....isn't that exactly the problem with trying to fill huge holes on the cheap? We're shitty...and we knew we'd be shitty.



Yes, but the rest of the OL was filled by a first round pick at LT, a Pro Bowl LG, an above average center, and a massive expenditure for a free agent right tackle. So we had that one hole to be filled on an otherwise above-average OL. To fill that one hole, we had a bunch of candidates, including some guys who had shown themselves to be at least competent at that position -- Teller, for example. And the OL had the excuse of having four guys opt out because of Covid, which isn't something that can fairly be blamed on the FO.

In contrast, we entered this season with two kinds of players to fill our linebacking corps: 1) unproven lottery tickets, and 2) below-average veterans. And -- stunning surprise -- our linebacking corps is putrid.

But if the strategy is sound logic, then wouldn't it be the smart move to do the exact same thing this offseason? Maybe get another LB somewhere in the 3rd-5th round, and get another veteran who is a backup at best?

Hey, I'm not defending this situation too hard. I wanted to keep Schobert but didn't want to pay Pro Bowl money since he has issues. BTW while Schobert leads the NFL in tackles so far this season, PFF graded him at 38.6, which is significantly lower than BJ Goodson.

Somebody who is a veteran and has some range in zone coverage would be a great trade deadline. If not, I'm in favor of drafting a linebacker and right defensive end in the first two rounds next season. It's time for some blue chip talent infusion in the front seven.

Also - I'm expecting PFF to take a giant shit on the defensive tackles and their performance on Sunday. With Larry O, Richardson, and Jordan Elliott also playing a bad game, the linebacker play looks even worse. I for one thought the defensive tackles would be a strength of the team this year. The Browns invested at that spot.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Wasn't able to watch.

Why weren't we able to run?

Good question. I think we really miss Teller. Though we do have a wide zone scheme, we also run a lot of gap blocking with pulling guards, traps, etc., and Teller was just a monster at doing that. Teams were compensating to try and stop him, and they still couldn't. Hubbard has been pretty good in pass protection, but he just doesn't open holes like Teller. Also, Hunt is good, but he isn't Chubb.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Hey, I'm not defending this situation too hard. I wanted to keep Schobert but didn't want to pay Pro Bowl money since he has issues. BTW while Schobert leads the NFL in tackles so far this season, PFF graded him at 38.6, which is significantly lower than BJ Goodson.

Somebody who is a veteran and has some range in zone coverage would be a great trade deadline. If not, I'm in favor of drafting a linebacker and right defensive end in the first two rounds next season. It's time for some blue chip talent infusion in the front seven.

Also - I'm expecting PFF to take a giant shit on the defensive tackles and their performance on Sunday. With Larry O, Richardson, and Jordan Elliott also playing a bad game, the linebacker play looks even worse. I for one thought the defensive tackles would be a strength of the team this year. The Browns invested at that spot.

Yeah, I hear you. Didn't mean to bite your head off.

I'd be a lot more supportive of trying to fill LB holes with lower round players if we were just trying to fill one. But trying to fill both starters on the cheap is just way too much of a longshot, and it kills us.

Honestly, the whole defense is in questionable shape. The LB's are trash, and the DT's didn't look good at all. I have zero faith in Greedy Williams ever being healthy consistently, We have to hope that post-Achilles injury Delpit is going to be the answer at FS, because we have enough holes to fill already.

 

[Rich]

Hunt is a good runner who can run through tackles but he doesn't have any big play burst in him.