Your most underrated player of the last 20 years

[Lee]

When do you hear future first ballot HOF Yadi Molina talked about?

Guy has 9 Gold Gloves and 9 AS appearances and won two WS. One of the best hitting catchers of all time. And @Randolphkeys , @Huber. , @Deezus , @Lee and @bushwick_bill all have no idea who he is.

Criminal.

Where is this coming from? I mean he is border line HOF catcher, probably belongs on the list, but I havent been talking in this thread as i dont watch enough of other teams to properly participate, but I know who Molina is.

 

[Derek]

Brian Giles was just as good as Vlad Guerrero

Since @Cassity14 laughed at me

Career numbers:
Giles - .291/.400/.502 136 wRC+ 54.8 fWAR
Vlad - .318/.379/.553 136 wRC+ 54.5 fWAR

Peak season:
Giles - .298/.450/.622 174 wRC+ 6.9 fWAR (2002)
Vlad - .336/.417/.593 155 wRC+ 7.1 fWAR (2002)

Peak 6-year stretch:
Giles - .303/.418/.554 150 wRC+ 40.9 fWAR (1999-2005)
Vlad - .328/.395/.600 148 wRC+ 38.2 fWAR (1998-2004)

 

[Criznit]

Since @Cassity14 laughed at me

Career numbers:
Giles - .291/.400/.502 136 wRC+ 54.8 fWAR
Vlad - .318/.379/.553 136 wRC+ 54.5 fWAR

Peak season:
Giles - .298/.450/.622 174 wRC+ 6.9 fWAR (2002)
Vlad - .336/.417/.593 155 wRC+ 7.1 fWAR (2002)

Peak 6-year stretch:
Giles - .303/.418/.554 150 wRC+ 40.9 fWAR (1999-2005)
Vlad - .328/.395/.600 148 wRC+ 38.2 fWAR (1998-2004)

Also from the little I have heard, Giles was an excellent and generous teammate. Definitely underrated and under appreciated.

 

[Cassity14]

Since @Cassity14 laughed at me

Career numbers:
Giles - .291/.400/.502 136 wRC+ 54.8 fWAR
Vlad - .318/.379/.553 136 wRC+ 54.5 fWAR

Peak season:
Giles - .298/.450/.622 174 wRC+ 6.9 fWAR (2002)
Vlad - .336/.417/.593 155 wRC+ 7.1 fWAR (2002)

Peak 6-year stretch:
Giles - .303/.418/.554 150 wRC+ 40.9 fWAR (1999-2005)
Vlad - .328/.395/.600 148 wRC+ 38.2 fWAR (1998-2004)

I'll have you know I gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked both up before pressing the laugh emote lol.

Nothing about this is "just as good" to me. At all.

 

[Derek]

I'll have you know I gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked both up before pressing the laugh emote lol.

Nothing about this is "just as good" to me. At all.

Where are you seeing a difference? Or are you saying Giles is better?

 

[Cassity14]

Where are you seeing a difference? Or are you saying Giles is better?

I had no idea how good Giles was, to be fair. I'm appreciative of getting to learn that today. This is one of my favorite threads on the site right now.

I'll make a few statements, and you can tell me how you feel about each:

1. Guerrero's career had a higher degree of longevity. If you look outside their 6 year peak, Guerrero is the better player definitively.

2. Guerrero's value as a player is lessened by playing in the national league because he could not DH there.

3. Giles value is raised by playing primarily in the national league because of his defense and baserunning, two skills that play better over there.

*This is where I should admit that growing up an Indians fan, I've always been biased toward the AL and DH, and that probably plays into my opinion.

4. Guerrero's second peak season is right next to his peak season, and considerably stronger than Giles second peak season.

 

[Derek]

I had no idea how good Giles was, to be fair. I'm appreciative of getting to learn that today. This is one of my favorite threads on the site right now.

I'll make a few statements, and you can tell me how you feel about each:

1. Guerrero's career had a higher degree of longevity. If you look outside their 6 year peak, Guerrero is the better player definitively.

That's not really true at all. Outside their 6-year peaks, Vlad had 16.3 fWAR to Giles's 13.9, but Vlad had 3 extra seasons as a DH. Giles was a National League player for the entirety of his career after being dealt from Cleveland.

2. Guerrero's value as a player is lessened by playing in the national league because he could not DH there.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Vlad ended up spending most of his career in the AL as either a terrible outfielder or a DH.

3. Giles value is raised by playing primarily in the national league because of his defense and baserunning, two skills that play better over there.

Giles was very similar to Guerrero in the way that playing the field actually hurt their value for a good chunk of his career. Vlad also slowed down A LOT after Montreal and was a poor baserunner for the majority of his time in the AL.

Giles was also stuck in one of the most extreme pitchers' parks in the modern MLB in San Diego.

*This is where I should admit that growing up an Indians fan, I've always been biased toward the AL and DH, and that probably plays into my opinion.

4. Guerrero's second peak season is right next to his peak season, and considerably stronger than Giles second peak season.

This is just flat-out false. Their second-best seasons are strikingly similar again and only a year apart.

Second best season:
Giles - .315/.418/.614 154 wRC+ 6.7 fWAR (1999)
Vlad - .345/.410/.664 160 wRC+ 6.2 fWAR (2000)*

*His second-best fWAR season was actually 1998, but a lot of that was linked to defensive value. 2000 was his best year as a hitter, but 2002 is when he stole 40 bases, which makes it his most valuable season.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

That's not really true at all. Outside their 6-year peaks, Vlad had 16.3 fWAR to Giles's 13.9, but Vlad had 3 extra seasons as a DH. Giles was a National League player for the entirety of his career after being dealt from Cleveland.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Vlad ended up spending most of his career in the AL as either a terrible outfielder or a DH.

Giles was very similar to Guerrero in the way that playing the field actually hurt their value for a good chunk of his career. Vlad also slowed down A LOT after Montreal and was a poor baserunner for the majority of his time in the AL.

Giles was also stuck in one of the most extreme pitchers' parks in the modern MLB in San Diego.

This is just flat-out false. Their second-best seasons are strikingly similar again and only a year apart.

Second best season:
Giles - .315/.418/.614 154 wRC+ 6.7 fWAR (1999)
Vlad - .345/.410/.664 160 wRC+ 6.2 fWAR (2000)*

*His second-best fWAR season was actually 1998, but a lot of that was linked to defensive value. 2000 was his best year as a hitter, but 2002 is when he stole 40 bases, which makes it his most valuable season.

Vlad wins due to "fun factor" being a pure 10. Giles can't do this.


or this

 

[Derek]

Vlad wins due to "fun factor" being a pure 10. Giles can't do this.


or this

If you want to say that Vlad was more entertaining, I won't argue.

However, if we're talking about who the best baseball players of all time are, Giles is right there with him.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

If you want to say that Vlad was more entertaining, I won't argue.

However, if we're talking about who the best baseball players of all time are, Giles is right there with him.

I reluctantly can't disagree with you.

It doesn't feel good, and if I'm picking one guy or the other I pick Vlad every time without a second thought.

You're now making me dislike Brian Giles.

 

[Lee]

If you want to say that Vlad was more entertaining, I won't argue.

However, if we're talking about who the best baseball players of all time are, Giles is right there with him.

If you are using modern stats, yes Giles isnt far behind Vlad, but do we think modern stats will get you to the hall?

The hall type numbers are Vlad has 449 HR;s vs 287 for Giles and Vlad hit .318 vs .291 for Giles. Those are the numbers that the hall voters look at.

But sure, Giles has the higher OBP because he was much more disciplined at the plate and their OPS is .931 for Vlad and .902 for Giles.

I mean i think we can agree that Giles never goes to the HOF, but hw was about 90% or even 95% as good as Vlad.

 

[Derek]

If you are using modern stats, yes Giles isnt far behind Vlad, but do we think modern stats will get you to the hall?

The hall type numbers are Vlad has 449 HR;s vs 287 for Giles and Vlad hit .318 vs .291 for Giles. Those are the numbers that the hall voters look at.

But sure, Giles has the higher OBP because he was much more disciplined at the plate and their OPS is .931 for Vlad and .902 for Giles.

I mean i think we can agree that Giles never goes to the HOF, but hw was about 90% or even 95% as good as Vlad.

I think when looking at those numbers, you also have to account for Giles playing a large chunk of his career in Qualcomm or Petco in San Diego.

He was a perennial 35+ HR guy in Pittsburgh and then got traded to a park that saps all power.

I know you're probably right about hall voters, but I'm posting this in the underrated thread for a reason.

 

[Lee]

I think when looking at those numbers, you also have to account for Giles playing a large chunk of his career in Qualcomm or Petco in San Diego.

He was a perennial 35+ HR guy in Pittsburgh and then got traded to a park that saps all power.

I know you're probably right about hall voters, but I'm posting this in the underrated thread for a reason.

I am looking at OBP and OPS, more modern stats. I brought up the other numbers mainly because of the hall voters look at mainly old school.

I am not disagreeing, just turning the conversation since you compared to a HOF player, why Giles will never even sniff the hall although he is 95% as good as Vlad.

But these are the same voters who wont put in Loften or think the roid players were an anomaly even though they know 75% of the players used, and they are keeping those out that were never convicted, so guilty although never found guilty.

So fuck the hall, baseball's hall is the biggest joke in all of sports. A bunch of pompous hypocritical senile assholes.

 

[Derek]

I am looking at OBP and OPS, more modern stats. I brought up the other numbers mainly because of the hall voters look at mainly old school.

I am not disagreeing, just turning the conversation since you compared to a HOF player, why Giles will never even sniff the hall although he is 95% as good as Vlad.

But these are the same voters who wont put in Loften or think the roid players were an anomaly even though they know 75% of the players used, and they are keeping those out that were never convicted, so guilty although never found guilty.

So fuck the hall, baseball's hall is the biggest joke in all of sports. A bunch of pompous hypocritical senile assholes.

OBP and OPS would still be deflated by playing in a pitcher's park, especially OPS since it incorporates slugging%.

Still, it seems we're on the same page. Although, I don't even think the gap between Giles and Vlad is more than 0.1%. To me, they had nearly identical values during nearly identical periods of time.

 

[Lee]

OBP and OPS would still be deflated by playing in a pitcher's park, especially OPS since it incorporates slugging%.

Still, it seems we're on the same page. Although, I don't even think the gap between Giles and Vlad is more than 0.1%. To me, they had nearly identical values during nearly identical periods of time.

If Giles put up same numbers today, he would be much more favorably viewed.