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The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

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I knew the Sand Snakes would be trouble (for filming) when I saw the stills before the season started. They're just fluff, simple as that. The whip is by far the worst aspect of the trio. The fighting scene was hard to watch as mentioned above.

Next week should really start to set us up for things to come. Looking forward to a few great episodes.
 
It's funny that everyone is all offended by Sansa getting raped but ignoring the fact that Dany was raped in literally the first episode of the series as a plot device.

Yeah, but Dany was raped by a hot exotic-looking guy and Sansa was raped by a "creeper" guy. There's the difference.
 
Not only that, but females unequivocally LOVED Drogo. He did give her a white horse and call her "moon of my life", after all.

What's also jaw-dropping to me is how Sansa has been portrayed, even before Ramsay, as a particularly long-suffering character. Really?

Her brother Robb had his head cutoff and sewn onto Grey Wolf's body. Bran was thrown out of a window and is a cripple for life. Jon was (essentially) sent to the Wall in his mid-teens, and forced to a life without a wife, children, or love. Her mother had her throat slit after watching her son be murdered, and her father had his head chopped off. Oh, and in the show, her pregnant sister in law was murdered, stabbed in the abdomen repeatedly to ensure the fetus was dead.

That's just her family (omitting, of course, her uncle and grandfather who were burned alive in their armor). We've also got little Mycah the butcher's boy ridden down and killed laughingly by Sandor Clegane, who also happens to generally be considered a great love-match for Sansa by her fans.

Then we've got the hordes of other murdered men, women and children throughout the story, the horrific sexual mutilation of Theon, the enslavement and forced castration of 8000 Unsullied, the prostitute who was horrible abused by Cersei when she thought that was Tyrion's whore, etc. etc. etc..

I'm guessing every one of those people would have been quite happy to trade places with Sansa, at least pre-Ramsay, whose abuse was essentially limited to 2-3 beatings in Kings Landing over the course of a couple of years, while still living in luxury greater than 99% of the rest of the country. Hell, she was a virgin when she married Ramsay. How many non-noble girls would have been able to make it that long without getting raped/forced into marriage?

But we're all supposed to be outraged at this scene just because Sansa has already suffered so much. Horsecrap.

Anyone who quits this show because of what happened to Sansa, while continuing to watch after all these other things, including Theon anally raped, castrated, and subject to explicit torture for episode after episode, needs to get off their moral high horse.
 
So they couldn't give a damn when Jaime forces himself on Cersei next to a dead body? A brother/sister. Kept watching after that.

People just need shit to bitch about now-a-days. Rape happens all day everyday, it is awful, try and spread awareness in the real world. Complaining about a TV show, in which such places as Wash. Post, LA Times are writing about it, is absurd. The show has fucking dragons and people with stone bodies.

My gf speaks up on feminism every so often and has some firm beliefs towards things that happen to women, she was in the room watching it with me and said, "Wow, that was pretty intense...........can I watch my Dancing with the Stars recording now?" But a week before that we had a heated debate about mens/womens pay b/c she watched that video with Emma Watson speaking to the UN about HeforShe or some bullshit.

Those other types of people need to realize it is a problem in the world but getting your nipples all chafed about a TV show isn't a solution.

100% these people will keep secretly watching or come back later on when shit happens..
 
I just really don't understand why a character being raped is so ridiculous in the world these characters inhabit. It's a common occurrence. It happened all the time in the books. It happens quite often on the show. People are only outraged because it's happening to a character they like.
 
It's a fictional story. I'm shocked this is getting so much run.

Man, this is today's "rape culture" bullshit. Everything that even dares to portray a woman in plausibly negative light is treated like this.
 
I just really don't understand why a character being raped is so ridiculous in the world these characters inhabit. It's a common occurrence. It happened all the time in the books. It happens quite often on the show. People are only outraged because it's happening to a character they like.

Exactly. It'd be one thing if they'd concede the pure subjectivity of their complaint. As in "yes, I get why they did it, but I just don't personally like the turn the story has taken with my favorite character." I could respect that.

But what those critics are doing is saying the scene was objectively wrong/bad, and then tossing out convoluted feminist crap to justify that opposition. The basic theme being "well, she had a great character arc going and they just destroyed it for no reason."

First, the idea that GRRM writes stories to provide uplifting character arcs is something that they should have realized was b.s. the first season. What about fans -- like me -- who liked Ned? I thought he was going to set the world right, then they lopped off his head with no warning. Or how about fans of Robb? Great character arc going for the "Young Wolf", then they sawed off his head too.

And second, they didn't do it for "no reason". They did it because they thought it created a more dramatic, interesting story. It might not be the particular story some fans would have preferred, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that having Sansa get raped by Ramsay, escape Winterfell, and meet up with Stannis has a lot more dramatic plot possibilities than all that happening to a meaningless pawn like Jeyne.
 
Man, this is today's "rape culture" bullshit. Everything that even dares to portray a woman in plausibly negative light is treated like this.

As the article linked by kosis pointed out, Sansa wasn't even portrayed in a negative light. To argue that the rape portrayed her "negatively" is about as pure an example of victim blaming as you could possibly get. Which is normally something that would send feminists apeshit.
 
They also needed to give Sansa a legitimate reason to want to escape Winterfell. If Ramsay treated her like a gentleman, well, I imagine she'd just stick around.

Also seems pretty clear that Brienne will end up being the ghost of Winterfell, or some variation on it. I wonder if she'll end up either captured or dead like Mance (probably) did in the books.
 
One thing I just realized is that they haven't even mentioned the Freys this season. Barely the last. Not sure why they don't add the other evil family to the narrative that the audience can rally around. There should be a contingent hanging out with Roose at Winterfell at the very least. Wasted opportunity for a show that needs more villains.
 
One thing I just realized is that they haven't even mentioned the Freys this season. Barely the last. Not sure why they don't add the other evil family to the narrative that the audience can rally around. There should be a contingent hanging out with Roose at Winterfell at the very least. Wasted opportunity for a show that needs more villains.

Well, without Stoneheart out there preying on the Freys, they're just not involved in the story any more. They're barely involved in the books at this point, although I suspect they'll get what's coming to them eventually.
 
Man there is way too much group think going on here. I'll go ahead and play the contrarian, because I think the issue here is being marginalized on this board, and it deserves a bit more respect than that.

The issue here isn't the rape. The show has portrayed rape before, and it will likely portray rape again. Had they followed through with the Jeyne Pool storyline, I imagine there'd still be a great deal of outrage, but when you start orchestrating some sort of double-rape with a eunich and beastiality, you'll raise a few eyebrows.

The issue here is Sansa, or more particularly, Sansa's evolution in Martin's universe.

I brought this up probably 200 pages ago, but my wife is working on her doctorate studying females in fantasy novels, specifically focusing on the gender roles and sexual identities of characters in Tolkien's world vs. Martin's. (As they have arguably built the two most complex and epic worlds, and exist on two very separate spectrums. (Some of it is absolutely fascinating, like Samwise Gamgee filling the role of the traditional wife, but that's way OT)

What is relevant here is how Martin builds out character development. All of his characters follow the same baseline goal, whatever it is for their character, until that course of action fails them. At that point, they are either forced to adapt at the cost of some extreme physical or emotional impairment (see: Bran, Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Jon, etc.) or die (See: Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, etc.) In a Proustian sense, characters can only grow and develop through adversity.

How is that relevant here? Well, a few things are at odds: For one, none of the major power players are acting in a way that makes sense for their desires. Sure, Ramsay's claim to the North is a bit stronger with Sansa as a bride, but at what cost? Would the Bolton's be so quick to alienate themselves from both Stannis and the Lannisters, his one and only powerful ally backing his claim? And why would Littlefinger go through all the work to capture Sansa only to leave her at Winterfell, so he could make a claim on the North himself? There'd be many other ways to accomplish this without forfeiting such a powerful piece.

But most importantly, after all Sansa has been through and survived, after all the growth she has gone through, would she so absentmindedly walked into this situation without any preparedness? It would be a worthy debate had Ramsay portrayed himself as a proper gentleman until revealing his colors on their wedding night, but that's not what happened here. Instead, she sees all the warning signs; she knows this man is a monster. And she's given a way out, but instead unwittingly walks into this horrible situation so the showrunners could provide Theon with a moment of clarity. They absolutely needed to find a way to provide Theon with that moment, but not at the expense of another main character acting as a plot device.

Sansa should be evolving along the lines of Petyr Baelish, or becoming the next Olenna Martell. She is learning how to read people, how to keep them guessing, and position herself in a place of power. This scene served Sansa nothing but to strip her of 4 previous seasons of development.

Now, am I saying the show is broken, or can't recover? Absolutely not. I do think the show was a veritable masterpiece for its first 4 seasons, and just now is the quality between the books and the show starting to show through, but there are other issues at play besides the Sansa debacle. Dorne is a mess, and they should have stuck with the original script (or, if unable to do this, scrapped it altogether). This Jaime storyline and the half-assed attempt at the sand snakes serves no good purpose. Also, turning the most progressive government in Dorne into a simple patriarchy is just lazy. Considering a few of the last words Oberyn said before his death are "In Dorne, we don't hurt little girls!" it seems an odd choice for his daughters to plot the death of a teenage Myrcella.

The church acting as a power serving the far right seems to be done solely to appease the American fanbase as it's how Americans expect a religious entity to act. Yet in the books, the movement comes from the far left, which makes far more sense given the circumstances of the people in Flea Bottom, but the showrunners apparently didn't trust the viewers to understand how an extreme leftist movement could become violent. (See: Bolshevik revolution)

I just get the sense that so much of this show's reception was built off of trusting the audience to be smart enough to follow the intrigue and twisting plots, but here in the 5th season there's some rush to dumb it all down and streamline the process. I'm not sure who that serves, but it's no longer doing great justice to the novels. Whether that actually should matter is another debate entirely, but yes, I'd rate the Sansa rape scene as the worst misstep the showrunners have made thus far. It doesn't mean I'll stop watching, or Sansa can't be "redeemed," or anything of that nature. But it could certainly have been handled much better; main characters need to act with their own agency, they shouldn't be marginalized as a plot device.
 

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