Chris Grant - Cavaliers GM

Cavatt said:

We have one of the youngest teams. You are totally right. If this was Waiters' end point, I wouldn't be too happy. If you don't see the potential, root for CJ miles and his better PER.

Seriously, his defense is so improved he looks like one of the better defenders on the team. His ability to get to the rack is unquestioned, and his passing has been fantastic lately. His shot selection and just general play has been so much smarter and within himself this year, I really don't know what there is to complain about.

The complaining over guys who are consistently improving is doing my head in. TT and Dion are the bright spots on the team you fools!!!!

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Dog they improved from bad to ok.

You're making it seem like that they were really good players who improved to great players.

I understand u think they have potential to be really good but don't get so caught up in that.
At some point the team is gonna need them to play a few more levels higher and it remains to be seen if they can do that.

They're ok players but I think from what I've seen from them they are 7/10 of the way to peaking.

SteelSmack said:

Hockey assists was just one example of stats that tell a broader story that PER completely ignores.

Does Delly + Dion have a better +/- than Delly + Kyrie? Yup. Probably just an outlier, right? Dion + CJ? same story. Dion + Jack? Same story again. The bottom line, Dion actually helps shut the other team down, something that PER ignores.

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How about you factor for stuff like the huge negative impact Bynum had with his by far worst on the team +/- of -10.0 and the fact that once Dion went to the bench, he almost never was on the court with Bynum. There is a stat that adjust stuff like that out - Advanced Statistical Plus Minus.

If you click on the cavs link here: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/2014-aspm/

you'll see that only two players on the roster have a positive ASPM, Kyrie at +2.37 and Andy at +1.14 (and clicking on Chicago shows Luol Deng should give us our 3rd)

There is another stat that tries a different approach to factoring out who you are on the court with, Adjusted +/-, I can't find a link to a site that has that.

I like Dion and think he can be a great player. He's not there just yet, and if a stat seems to show he's better than Kyrie, you might want to take a closer look at that stat.

Look at my last post... duh.

ASPM rates Kyrie as a better defender than Dion. I can't much stock in it.

Cavatt said:

We have one of the youngest teams. You are totally right. If this was Waiters' end point, I wouldn't be too happy. If you don't see the potential, root for CJ miles and his better PER.

Seriously, his defense is so improved he looks like one of the better defenders on the team. His ability to get to the rack is unquestioned, and his passing has been fantastic lately. His shot selection and just general play has been so much smarter and within himself this year, I really don't know what there is to complain about.

The complaining over guys who are consistently improving is doing my head in. TT and Dion are the bright spots on the team you fools!!!!

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Man, it is really a sin to criticize players in this board. We are fools now, alright. MAybe TT and Waiters are not as good as we think they are especially when we compare them to the rest of the league.

KI4MVP said:

How about you factor for stuff like the huge negative impact Bynum had with his by far worst on the team +/- of -10.0 and the fact that once Dion went to the bench, he almost never was on the court with Bynum. There is a stat that adjust stuff like that out - Advanced Statistical Plus Minus.

If you click on the cavs link here: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/2014-aspm/

you'll see that only two players on the roster have a positive ASPM, Kyrie at +2.37 and Andy at +1.14 (and clicking on Chicago shows Luol Deng should give us our 3rd)

There is another stat that tries a different approach to factoring out who you are on the court with, Adjusted +/-, I can't find a link to a site that has that.

I like Dion and think he can be a great player. He's not there just yet, and if a stat seems to show he's better than Kyrie, you might want to take a closer look at that stat.

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You're thinking of RAPM. ASPM is a totally different stat that relies purely on box score (rather than +/-) stats.

RAPM can be found here for last season. I don't think it's available anywhere for this season yet.

mAo_mAo said:

Man, it is really a sin to criticize players in this board. We are fools now, alright. MAybe TT and Waiters are not as good as we think they are especially when we compare them to the rest of the league.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing our players. We do not have one person on the team who is perfect. What gets frustrating is people who make statements that they think are absolute truths. Waiters has a bad PER, which means he sucks and will never be a good player. To me that is not criticism but an ignorant statement. IF you watch any cavs games, Waiters has a lot of flaws, but being so young he can improve them. Waiters has the type of game that can be elevated into a decent if not All Star player. If he is able to cont. to develop a better shot around the rim, then his PER would go up. I have watched pretty much every Cavs game, and can say, he has improved from game 1.

Like KI4MVP has said, the Bynum experience has set the whole team back. I also think that now we can utilize Waiters better with this team with Deng.

mAo_mAo said:

Man, it is really a sin to criticize players in this board. We are fools now, alright. MAybe TT and Waiters are not as good as we think they are especially when we compare them to the rest of the league.

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You aren't comparing the to their peers. You are comparing them to guys that are a lot older. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. You can say they are almost to their ceiling, but how you know that when they are both 22 is crazy.

So yeah, I think you are a fool if you compare a 2nd year player to a bunch of vets.

What you want to see is progress, and that is happening. How do they look compared to 2nd and 3rd year players?

Giannis and Beal are ahead of Waiters with lower usage. Are they at the their ceilings or are they promising players on their teams?

Dinner Bell Mel said:

You guys overrating Waiters seriously need to buy a fucking clue...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg

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according to this, CJ Miles is substantially better than Lance Stephenson and Klay Thompson...

Los216 said:

Dog they improved from bad to ok.

You're making it seem like that they were really good players who improved to great players.

I understand u think they have potential to be really good but don't get so caught up in that.
At some point the team is gonna need them to play a few more levels higher and it remains to be seen if they can do that.

They're ok players but I think from what I've seen from them they are 7/10 of the way to peaking.

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Yeah my only point is that they are getting better and we should see what we have here. 7/10 is completely arbitrary.

Sticker114 said:

according to this, CJ Miles is substantially better than Lance Stephenson and Klay Thompson...

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Surely GS and IN are freaking out about that chart.

Cavatt said:

You aren't comparing the to their peers. You are comparing them to guys that are a lot older. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. You can say they are almost to their ceiling, but how you know that when they are both 22 is crazy.

So yeah, I think you are a fool if you compare a 2nd year player to a bunch of vets.

What you want to see is progress, and that is happening. How do they look compared to 2nd and 3rd year players?

Giannis and Beal are ahead of Waiters with lower usage. Are they at the their ceilings or are they promising players on their teams?

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From that table, comparing Waiters this year to what he did last year without any reference to his peers why does his numbers down? But his TS and with higher Usage rate. Or are those stats useless too like PER?

mAo_mAo said:

From that table, comparing Waiters this year to what he did last year without any reference to his peers why does his numbers down? But his TS and with higher Usage rate. Or are those stats useless too like PER?

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It's finishing at the rim. He is getting better at that, but you are absolutely right. He needs to finish better at the rim. He starts making more shots at the rim, he will also get more calls, and his PER will skyrocket.

Just check out his numbers compared with Harden's second year. Dion for sure has problems with efficiency. I will completely concede that point. If he starts converting his opportunities around the basket, or hell even passes instead of trying to finish it would change his ranking drastically. He also needs to improve his ft%, and i think that is possible. Turnovers are a problem too, but that is the area young players tend to improve the most as the get used to the league's defense.

Beal, and to a lesser extent because they are younger Giannis and Wroten are the only guys on that list that are fair to compare him to. I would love to have any of those guys on the team. SG is a really hard position to play efficiently, especially from the very beginning.

It's just funny how people are saying they'd take Giannis #1 overall. If Grant did that, he'd been fired before the kid could even suit up. That's how bad this previous draft was.



I think Bennett will drastically improve next season because in a sense, the spotlight will be turned off. Maybe it will be good motivation for Anthony to head into the summer being called the biggest bust in NBA history.

Who knows fellas this could be a blessing in disguise. I feel like Bennett is a hard kid to break through to anyways, and maybe all that "bust" talk will be the best thing for him. If he would have averaged 8-10 points per game this season, maybe he'd just stay that way forever and be content to be who he is.

Now there's no way he can be content to "be who he is" after this season, and I can see him busting ass this summer. Sure his nerves are fried, but next season I think he won't be so blindsided, he'll also be in 100% solid shape, and perhaps have a little more slack in the leash from Mike Brown too. Couple that with the fact that people will stop watching him so intently, and I think that he's heading for success in the future.

Cavatt said:

Yeah my only point is that they are getting better and we should see what we have here. 7/10 is completely arbitrary.

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Ok but the way this team is constructed and the phase we are in right now we can't wait two more seasons for TT and Dion to reach the level that we expect them to.

It really comes down to this. Kyrie is our best player and we need to take advantage of the fact that he's still on his rookie deal (soon to be offered an extension) and he's an All Star right now. Not a potential All Star like Dion and TT. He's an All Star right now. It would be great if Dion and TT could become All Stars in two seasons but what about now?

If Kyrie is our only All Star player for the next two seasons then how good do you expect us to be?

How much better in two seasons will Dion and TT be than they are now? I see them both as decent role players and their ceiling is fringe All Stars depending on how the state of the league is with injuries like this season which will take at least sure fire All Stars out of the game this year and allow a guy like Jeff Teague or Aaron Afflalo to make the team.

One other thing that you forget to mention is if Dion and TT do become fringe All Stars than they are gonna command market value for their extensions. I'm sorry but from what I've seen from TT and Dion I'm not willing to shell out Taj Gibson money to TT or Klay Thompson (when he gets his extension) money to Dion. TT and Dion are young and I understand that but look at this

Kyrie - Our max player, our top dollar guy
Deng - If we sign him to a long term extension then he's most likely our 3rd option which is fine because he played that role well in CHI with Rose and Boozer

Now here is where things get tricky.

There has to be another All Star player on this team who's a second option to Kyrie. I'll only list players who I think we have a realistic chance at acquiring

C - Marc Gasol, Monroe, Cousins, Brook Lopez
PF - Love, Horford, Bosh, Blake Griffin
SG - Lance Stephenson, Klay

Assuming we have Kyrie and Deng for the future than that 3rd wheel so to speak will be a PF, C, or SG

Remember Chris Grant didn't assemble this team to keep all of these young guys. if some of them out perform their expectations than that will increase the return we'll get for trading them. We have to start looking at the players on this roster not named Kyrie or Deng as assets. That's what they are. None of them have displayed the ability or showed from what I've seen (and probably Chris Grant) that they can be that second All Star player to pair with Kyrie long term. If they did than we would be a hell of a lot better than we are right now.

You can't watch this team and honestly say that Dion or TT who are our next two best players when you factor in age next to Kyrie and Deng are going to be that 2nd All Star option between Kyrie and Deng. I love Deng, he's one of my favorite players but this team isn't winning a championship with Kyrie and Deng as our top two options. It's going to take us acquiring one of those players I mention earlier and rounding out the roster with solid vets for a contending team.

Guys like Afflalo, Robin Lopez, Sefaloshia, Gortat, Tyson Chandler, Korver, Jarrett Jack, David Lee, OJ Mayo, Marion. These are the types of players we'll need once we get that 2nd All Star. I'm sure Chris Grant will have the ability to trade for players of that caliber. I think these group of player are what we should expect from Dion and TT. That's not completely bad because there are some All Stars in that group and some really solid players. The issue is I can see TT accepting the role of one of those guys but not Dion. That plus the Lebron connection that TT has and his chemistry with Kyrie leads me to believe that we are more likely to keep TT than Dion long term. Depending on who that second All Star is we might have to give up both of them.

TT and Dion are ok young players but we are getting really really close to the point in the rebuild where Chris Grant and the rest of the organization need to start figuring out which of these young guys are we gonna keep here with Kyrie. As of now it seems like TT is the one who is most likely to stay long term. It all depends on who Chris Grant can acquire and what's it going to cost us.

^^ take Brook Lopez off of the list, he is a major risk after his last foot surgery and add LeBron to the list. He's listed at SF, but really if we had him on the same team as Kyrie and Deng I'm sure we could figure out lineups that work.

Either way, Kyrie isn't our only all star. Deng is our second all star.

Also, I think Dion could break through sooner than many expect. I wouldn't turn down a deal for someone who is a proven all-nba caliber player if we can't make the deal without including Dion. But we likely have some time before a decision like that has to be made.