Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

Come on guys.

Way too much hype on Embiid, he's not the once-in-a-generation talent he's still being made out to be. That would be Anthony Davis, whose barely over a year older than Embiid and is already one of the five best players in the entire league. The injury concerns for Embiid are way too legitimate to brush aside now, his immense talent is dragged down by a fragile body. Still a great prospect, but damn the once-in-a-generation has to stop. Those players can actually stay on the court.

I was even reading some DeMarcus Cousins comparisons, I really can't think of a worse comp for their games.

Embiid is going to be an old rookie (already about to turn 21) next year, best case scenario (no injury setbacks) the Sixers ease him into around 20-25 minutes a night as a defensive specialist. Even that's being generous; he struggled with foul trouble in college, I don't see that changing in his first year adjusting to the speed of the NBA game.

On the flip side, by the time Cousins was 21 he was averaging an 18/11 as a focal point of an NBA offense. He had already proven he was capable of staying on the court for 30+ minutes a night, something Embiid couldn't even do at the college level.

I just can't stand reading the "if Embiid was healthy" narrative, this guy was damaged goods throughout the entire process. He didn't even break his foot during a predraft without, our team doctors discovered a preexisting fracture. At that point it wasn't even a debate, Embiid's injury concerns cast serious doubt if he could ever tap into his vast potential and approach his lofty ceiling.

CommD said:

Trade cannot be judged in CLE's favor until one of two things happen: CAVS win the championship THIS year, or Kevin Love at least opts-in to his contract for next year.

Any other outcome will constitute a massive failure on the part of team management. And because they will not be in a position to replace Love, losing James the following year becomes a real possibility, if not probability.

Way to much leverage for Kevin Love to hold. If it were up to me, Love would be on his way to BOS today for Bradley, Olynyck, Sullinger, and. 1st. I"m sure Danny could convince him to opt-in/re-sign.

But alas, c'est la vie... Will just have to keep hearing Mike & Mike sending Love to LAL EVERYDAY.

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Well, that could not happen because we would have 16 players on the roster... Also, even if we could have a 16th guy, I don't make that trade, ever. Bradley and Sullinger have shown capabilities of being average-above average players. Olynyck will be a semi-rotational bench player. So that trade makes us locked in the same development-centric team we were the past four years; but, the difference being Lebron James. If I remember correctly we tried that for seven years and it didn't work so well.

If you want to criticize the trades Griffin has made because it messes up the team for the future, I'm fine with that and tend to agree. But if you simply want to trade any chance of winning a championship for "the future" I think you would rather have 4-5 years (not to mention if we make that trade I guarantee Lebron leaves after next season) of "good" basketball than one championship, and to me, that is a travesty.

jking948 said:

Well, that could not happen because we would have 16 players on the roster... Also, even if we could have a 16th guy, I don't make that trade, ever. Bradley and Sullinger have shown capabilities of being average-above average players. Olynyck will be a semi-rotational bench player. So that trade makes us locked in the same development-centric team we were the past four years; but, the difference being Lebron James. If I remember correctly we tried that for seven years and it didn't work so well.

If you want to criticize the trades Griffin has made because it messes up the team for the future, I'm fine with that and tend to agree. But if you simply want to trade any chance of winning a championship for "the future" I think you would rather have 4-5 years (not to mention if we make that trade I guarantee Lebron leaves after next season) of "good" basketball than one championship, and to me, that is a travesty.

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NBA titles are superstar driven. Hard to find any examples of teams that traded a superstar for a bunch of good parts and used that trade to win it all. In fact historically, the opposite has been true. Jabbar, Garnett, Wilt, Barkley, all went for multiple guys and the teams getting the superstar clearly prevailed.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Good point. You only have to look as far as Kyrie to see the difference winning makes in terms of attitude. Kyrie only played for garbage teams prior to this year, so he loves the winning. Love's teams weren't garbage, but he still never made the playoffs.

Also, if there really are underlying back/injury issues with Love that are affecting his play, the disaffection people see may really not have anything to do with the Cavs, but rather his unhappiness with his own health. And that's not something he can improve just by switching teams.

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Tell you what, I'm really interested/excited to see Kevin in action tomorrow. All season, I have been saying that we needed to sit him out for a week or two due to what I've seen as back issues. I don't care what is said publicly... you could visibly see him out there laboring around at various points in the first half of the year. I thought it was pretty obvious that he was playing hurt much of the time.

Now, he has gotten that break. I'm expecting Kevin to look rejuvenated tomorrow. It may not be as extreme as LeBron's pre/post two-week-off transformation, but it wouldn't shock me if it was close.

CosmoKramer said:

Come on guys.

Way too much hype on Embiid, he's not the once-in-a-generation talent he's still being made out to be. That would be Anthony Davis, whose barely over a year older than Embiid and is already one of the five best players in the entire league. The injury concerns for Embiid are way too legitimate to brush aside now, his immense talent is dragged down by a fragile body. Still a great prospect, but damn the once-in-a-generation has to stop. Those players can actually stay on the court.

I was even reading some DeMarcus Cousins comparisons, I really can't think of a worse comp for their games.

Embiid is going to be an old rookie (already about to turn 21) next year, best case scenario (no injury setbacks) the Sixers ease him into around 20-25 minutes a night as a defensive specialist. Even that's being generous; he struggled with foul trouble in college, I don't see that changing in his first year adjusting to the speed of the NBA game.

On the flip side, by the time Cousins was 21 he was averaging an 18/11 as a focal point of an NBA offense. He had already proven he was capable of staying on the court for 30+ minutes a night, something Embiid couldn't even do at the college level.

I just can't stand reading the "if Embiid was healthy" narrative, this guy was damaged goods throughout the entire process. He didn't even break his foot during a predraft without, our team doctors discovered a preexisting fracture. At that point it wasn't even a debate, Embiid's injury concerns cast serious doubt if he could ever tap into his vast potential and approach his lofty ceiling.

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What's the point of even discussing these guys if we can't envision how they'd play barring injuries? Point being, we all recognize injuries are now a big part of the Embiid narrative and they may unfortunately derail his career, which is why we can talk about his game without constantly addressing it.

Hell, he may never play an NBA game for all I know... which is why I prefaced bringing him up by saying "prior to his injury in the predraft workout."

I'm talking strictly about his skillset, not about the risks that he'll be limited or won't play due to injury. The reason he justifiably slipped from a sure-fire No. 1 overall pick to No. 3 is obviously due to the injuries.


Embiid has a pretty polished offensive game for a guy who hasn't even been playing basketball all that long. Great footwork, nice touch on his jumper, athletic around the basket ...

In Cousins' rookie year, he was plagued by foul trouble (over four a game), played 28 minutes a night and shot 43% from the field (pretty bad for a big guy, even a young one). He had work to do to become the player that we're seeing today.

No one knows what the future holds. Yes, there is a better than average chance that Embiid is plagued by injuries. But, there are also examples of guys who struggled with leg/foot problems early in their careers and got beyond them (Blake Griffin).

As for Anthony Davis, he is obviously a beast. But, simply based on physical traits and raw talent (not taking into account obvious injury problems), I think Embiid compares favorably to him. Embiid has a far bigger frame, he and Javale McGee are basically the two longest players in the league (wingspan/standing reach), he is very athletic for a guy that size and his footwork on the block can be a thing of beauty from what I've seen. He can also knock down jumpers pretty consistently out to about 15-18 feet.

I'm not sure how anyone could have studied Embiid's game at Kansas and not come away salivating at the offensive upside.

RedBlackAttack said:

As for Anthony Davis, he is obviously a beast. But, simply based on physical traits and raw talent (not taking into account obvious injury problems), I think Embiid compares favorably to him. Embiid has a far bigger frame, he and Javale McGee are basically the two longest players in the league (wingspan/standing reach), he is very athletic for a guy that size and his footwork on the block can be a thing of beauty from what I've seen. He can also knock down jumpers pretty consistently out to about 15-18 feet.

I'm not sure how anyone could have studied Embiid's game at Kansas and not come away salivating at the offensive upside.

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Not disagreeing that Embiid's got considerable upside, but that's just the thing. It's upside. The high ceilings we all love can't be reached if players can't stay on the court, and to me missing an entire year as a 20-year-old is more reminiscent of Greg Oden than Blake Griffin for Embiid.

That's why I can't get behind calling Embiid a once-in-a-generation prospect/talent. Those players are superstars. Magic, Jordan, Shaq, LeBron... they don't come around often, hence the whole once-in-a-generation thing.

I can't even call Embiid a once-in-a-generation center prospect, it completely ignores other centers (Oden, Cousins, Okafor) that were just as good (if not better) than Embiid was at Kansas. I mean, have you watched Jahlil Okafor this year? I don't think anyone can honestly say they'd rather have a 21-year-old Embiid over a 19-year-old Okafor moving forward, he's been that impressive as a freshman this year.

And uh, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Embiid compares favorably to Anthony Davis based on physical traits and raw talent. I just, I'm not going to touch that one.

RedBlackAttack said:

As for Anthony Davis, he is obviously a beast. But, simply based on physical traits and raw talent (not taking into account obvious injury problems), I think Embiid compares favorably to him. Embiid has a far bigger frame, he and Javale McGee are basically the two longest players in the league (wingspan/standing reach), he is very athletic for a guy that size and his footwork on the block can be a thing of beauty from what I've seen. He can also knock down jumpers pretty consistently out to about 15-18 feet.

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All of that may be true, but the difference is that Davis is doing it on the court. Embiid is doing it on paper. Give me Davis out there killing it 100 times out of 100 over Embiid's nebulous potential.

CalBuckeyeRob said:

NBA titles are superstar driven. Hard to find any examples of teams that traded a superstar for a bunch of good parts and used that trade to win it all. In fact historically, the opposite has been true. Jabbar, Garnett, Wilt, Barkley, all went for multiple guys and the teams getting the superstar clearly prevailed.

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'Superstar.' I guess it's a relative term.

Jack Brickman said:

All of that may be true, but the difference is that Davis is doing it on the court. Embiid is doing it on paper. Give me Davis out there killing it 100 times out of 100 over Embiid's nebulous potential.

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You always take the proven over the unproven and that doesn't even take into account Embiid's injury woes. I feel like we have strayed a long way from my original point which was just a passing reflection about whether or not the Cavs would have still done the Love deal with the No. 1 pick if Embiid had never suffered that foot injury in his workout.

I was basically just wondering out loud. I never said I'd take Embiid's potential over Davis right now (that's absurd) or that Embiid will ever live up to his high ceiling. It was just a "what if" scenario. And a reason to show the video of him recently going through minor contact drills.

This team is looking good enough now that it's hard to really regret anything that got us here. We're finally seeing that juggernaut potential we always thought was there. But with 20/20 hindsight I do wonder if it would have been possible to keep Wiggins and go hard for another big besides Klove (Pau Gasol would have been ideal).

If he realizes his potential then in a year or two Wiggins should be able to do all the stuff that JR Smith does, plus more...and you can see how well Smith fits as a complementary player. Plus his salary would have been a crazy deal.

But it's all idle speculation. And anyway, it's way premature to draw any conclusions about how Love has 'worked out' until we see how this team performs in the playoffs.

- Cavs #2 in the East? Check.

- Love 21/14/2 with his 33rd double double of the year? Check.

- Cavs win again? Check.

Every day, I like this trade a little bit more.

LeShaq said:

- Cavs #2 in the East? Check.

- Love 21/14/2 with his 33rd double double of the year? Check.

- Cavs win again? Check.

Every day, I like this trade a little bit more.

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Let's think about this for a second...

The reverse of this post would be a poster coming in here bashing Love on an off-day, saying "woe is me, why'd we trade Wiggins..."

It's why there are no winners and losers to these kinds of statements after a single game, and in my view, this is what starts these so-called "Love-hate" posts. Because the only way to counter this is to criticize Love coming off a great game.

With that said, it's a very very narrow vision to only consider the criteria mentioned. Those who wanted to keep Wiggins never contend that the Cavaliers would be better with Wiggins this season, or maybe even the next; it was always about the 10-year plan.

As good as Love is and can be, I don't think it's clear cut as of now that making this trade was the right move; especially at the price we paid.

gourimoko said:

Let's think about this for a second...

The reverse of this post would be a poster coming in here bashing Love on an off-day, saying "woe is me, why'd we trade Wiggins..."

It's why there are no winners and losers to these kinds of statements after a single game, and in my view, this is what starts these so-called "Love-hate" posts. Because the only way to counter this is to criticize Love coming off a great game.

With that said, it's a very very narrow vision to only consider the criteria mentioned. Those who wanted to keep Wiggins never contend that the Cavaliers would be better with Wiggins this season, or maybe even the next; it was always about the 10-year plan.

As good as Love is and can be, I don't think it's clear cut as of now that making this trade was the right move; especially at the price we paid.

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Man, just be happy Love is playing well, and the Cavs are 16 games above .500 instead of 34 games below .500 like the T-Wolves.

All4One1ForAll said:

Man, just be happy Love is playing well, and the Cavs are 16 games above .500 instead of 34 games below .500 like the T-Wolves.

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Because critical thinking right?

gourimoko said:

Because critical thinking right?

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You're just saying pointless things. Love is the one on our team - not Wiggins. Obviously we're more likely to post good things about Love because, again, he's the one on our team. I don't see why a post like that expressing positivity regarding Kevin would upset you.

All4One1ForAll said:

You're just saying pointless things. Love is the one on our team - not Wiggins. Obviously we're more likely to post good things about Love because he's the one on out team. I don't see why a post like that expressing positivity regarding Kevin would upset you.

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Because critical thinking, right?