Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

[NasstyNate]

This thread, like so many others around here, is merely a case study in hindsight and tail chasing, nothing more. I, for one, am very happy with our roster as currently constructed (Griff has turned assets into quality players) and I cant wait until it really starts firing on all cylinders.

I think the point that Redzone is making, and that I agree with, is that it is not about whether we traded for Love, it is how we did. It is not the regular Love v. Wiggins stuff, which is way too early to come to any conclusions.

The reason I bumped this thread is because the situation, not the player, is relatively similar to what we faced in the summer. Comparing the players themselves gets away from the point - Love could have been in this same situation right now, and could have told the Wolves that he would not be re-signing and given them a list of teams he is willing to play for (Cleveland). In theory that would lower the Wolves' asking price. Dragic, though not as good as Love, might be doing just this, and it will be interesting to see what Phoenix gets to kind of test that theory.

Keep in mind I probably would have traded Wiggins for Love at the deadline. What we are arguing is that it likely wouldn't have cost Wiggins because Minnesota would not have been in any position to demand him. Maybe we give up Dion + AB instead.

 

[PedroFlu]

Griffin had a tough decision to make, and he went the safe way. Can't really blame him. He already won the lottery with LeBron.

It was not that simple to wait to see how Wiggins would do until the trade deadline. He sent dubious signs on the camp. People just didn't know how he would translate to the NBA. He's actually doing much better than most people expected. I mean, he's playing better as a NBA rookie than as college rookie.

If you wait for him to show who he is, you run the risk his trade value would actually decline. Bennett is still very alive in Cleveland's minds. Trading for Love could not be in jeopardy. It's a chance that may not happen again in the middle of the year.

I'm disappointed with Love so far, and positively surprised with Wiggins. Today I don't think I'd do it. But at the time Griffin did, I was all for it. The whole league wasn't sure what to expect from Wiggins.

Also, Tristan Thompson would play 40 min a night and his contract would get a boost. And Cleveland would have to desperately trade for a big, and trade for players to give depth to the roster. Assets would fly away and we'd be still thin upfront with only 3 players, considering Varejao would be injured.

So.. it is what it is. Griffin did the right thing at the moment IMO.

 

[SanduskyCav]

I will agree with most of this post even though I was vocally against moving Wiggins in a deal for Love prior to the trade. Once it happened, I pretty much immediately moved on.

Obviously, if Wiggins turns into "Maple Jordan" as was his nickname in high school, it is going to hurt. At the same time, there is no doubt in my mind that the Cavs' ability to trade for Love with Wiggins is one of the major reasons LeBron James came back in the first place. I seriously doubt LeBron -- now 30 years old -- was willing to sit back and wait for a 19-year-old rookie to become an impact player on a championship-level team when the franchise had the opportunity to use him to get a Top 3 player at his position (who also happens to be just 25 himself) in exchange.

Comparing this to other situations, especially one like Goran Dragic, in an attempt to add more context to the Love trade is crazy. The Cavs were in a position that most franchises aren't likely to face any time soon. The youngest roster in the entire NBA suddenly discovers that it is the most likely landing spot for the best player of his generation with the (spoken or unspoken) promise that moves would be made to turn the team into one that could contend immediately.

The result was a historic haul by Flip Saunders, but I give him very little credit for it. He lucked into a once-in-a-generation series of events... (1) the Cavs miraculously win the lottery for the third time in four years; (2) Irving signs a max contract helping to ensure a bright future for the franchise; (3) Kevin Love announces (during the draft) through his agent that, if the Cavs have LeBron James and they make a trade for him, he will extend in Cleveland; (4) LeBron James announces he is coming to Cleveland.

If even one of those elements did not transpire, the TWolves right now would likely be lamenting a mediocre return or desperately clinging to Love in hopes of a homerun offer being made at the last minute.



I choose not to roll my eyes every time Love misses a jumper or Wiggins makes a highlight reel play. It's counterproductive at this point. The thing that has been interesting me lately as I think back to the summer and our collective excitement for the draft is this... What if Joel Embiid never gets hurt in the lead-up to the draft?

Because, I still think he was far and away the best talent available and may well become the guy most of us thought he was prior to his workout here. If Embiid is cleared totally healthy, do we trade him in a Kevin Love deal? Or, was he the kind of once-in-a-generation bigman talent that you don't trade regardless of the circumstances?

As I watch him prepare to start heavy contact drills, I think the latter.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OdqsZUqYDk&app=desktop

Gosh damn just watching him reminds me of Greg Oden with a jump shot. Could be a hell of a talent if he stays healthy and I hope he does just because it will be a joy to watch even being an opposing fan. However, I feel he's going to have a hard time staying on the court.

 

[The Oi]

Reminds me of Cousins.

 

[RedBlackAttack]

Reminds me of Cousins.

If he has Cousins' offense to compliment his seemingly happy-go-lucky, hard-working attitude, a bigger frame, and those amazing defensive traits... league should be on notice. I also got a little Cousins vibe from his workout.

 

[jlegg21]

If he has Cousins' offense to compliment his seemingly happy-go-lucky, hard-working attitude, a bigger frame, and those amazing defensive traits... league should be on notice. I also got a little Cousins vibe from his workout.

You're right on about that draft. If Embiid's foot is ok, changes everything. His potential is undeniable.

 

[SanduskyCav]

You're right on about that draft. If Embiid's foot is ok, changes everything. His potential is undeniable.

Hasn't he had more than the foot injury?

 

[Marcus]

I will agree with most of this post even though I was vocally against moving Wiggins in a deal for Love prior to the trade. Once it happened, I pretty much immediately moved on.

Obviously, if Wiggins turns into "Maple Jordan" as was his nickname in high school, it is going to hurt. At the same time, there is no doubt in my mind that the Cavs' ability to trade for Love with Wiggins is one of the major reasons LeBron James came back in the first place. I seriously doubt LeBron -- now 30 years old -- was willing to sit back and wait for a 19-year-old rookie to become an impact player on a championship-level team when the franchise had the opportunity to use him to get a Top 3 player at his position (who also happens to be just 25 himself) in exchange.

Comparing this to other situations, especially one like Goran Dragic, in an attempt to add more context to the Love trade is crazy. The Cavs were in a position that most franchises aren't likely to face any time soon. The youngest roster in the entire NBA suddenly discovers that it is the most likely landing spot for the best player of his generation with the (spoken or unspoken) promise that moves would be made to turn the team into one that could contend immediately.

The result was a historic haul by Flip Saunders, but I give him very little credit for it. He lucked into a once-in-a-generation series of events... (1) the Cavs miraculously win the lottery for the third time in four years; (2) Irving signs a max contract helping to ensure a bright future for the franchise; (3) Kevin Love announces (during the draft) through his agent that, if the Cavs have LeBron James and they make a trade for him, he will extend in Cleveland; (4) LeBron James announces he is coming to Cleveland.

If even one of those elements did not transpire, the TWolves right now would likely be lamenting a mediocre return or desperately clinging to Love in hopes of a homerun offer being made at the last minute.



I choose not to roll my eyes every time Love misses a jumper or Wiggins makes a highlight reel play. It's counterproductive at this point. The thing that has been interesting me lately as I think back to the summer and our collective excitement for the draft is this... What if Joel Embiid never gets hurt in the lead-up to the draft?

Because, I still think he was far and away the best talent available and may well become the guy most of us thought he was prior to his workout here. If Embiid is cleared totally healthy, do we trade him in a Kevin Love deal? Or, was he the kind of once-in-a-generation bigman talent that you don't trade regardless of the circumstances?

As I watch him prepare to start heavy contact drills, I think the latter.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OdqsZUqYDk&app=desktop

If Joel Embiid doesn't break his foot, this isn't even a discussion. I think they would have still made a move for an upper tier power forward or player in general, but not in the same stratosphere as Kevin Love.

 

[AuxiliaryPie]

Hasn't he had more than the foot injury?

bad back too

 

[Marcus]

Hasn't he had more than the foot injury?

Back and weight issues, IIRC. FWIW, Embiid has come out and said that he's nowhere near 300 lbs and that he's topped out at 275.

 

[blommen]

I remember that there were concerns regarding his stature and being too lanky, but just looking at how much more weight he's put on in muscle in that video... fucking hell, he could be a monster. the big asterisk is still wether he can stay healthy or not but assuming he does, he's going to be absolutely wrecking the league in a few years. it's fucking terrifying to think of.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Keep in mind I probably would have traded Wiggins for Love at the deadline. What we are arguing is that it likely wouldn't have cost Wiggins because Minnesota would not have been in any position to demand him. Maybe we give up Dion + AB instead.

C'mon dude, if we're going to argue "what if's", then we have to look at what our assets would have been worth had we waited.

This season has demonstrated that Bennett is complete garbage, and Waiters may struggle to remain a rotation player. Had we waited until the deadline, the trade value of both those guys would have been minimal. It always bugged me when people opposed to that trade just took as a given that the value of Bennett and Dion would increase as the season went on. Their value was where it was because the possibility that they'd improve significantly was balanced by the possibility that they wouldn't. And the longer a young guy with potential goes without showing it, the more his value drops.

If AB and Dion are the centerpiece of a trade deadline offer to Minny, they'd have laughed in our faces. The smart play for them at that point would be to play out the rest of the season because contenders for whom Love was willing to play would likely need Minny to facilitate a sign and trade anyway. Trading Love for a deal centered around hot garbage would have led to a justifiable fan revolt in Minny.

It's also entirely possible that had Wiggins stayed here, he would not have developed as he has done in Minny. He certainly would not have gotten the touches and opportunities for mistakes.

Griffin likely looked at the same scenarios we're discussing here, and figured it would probably come down to having to offer Wiggins at the deadline anyway. And if that's the most likely scenario, then the value of getting him in time for training camp versus mid-February was significant.

 

[westsidebob]

This thread, like so many others around here, is merely a case study in hindsight and tail chasing, nothing more. I, for one, am very happy with our roster as currently constructed (Griff has turned assets into quality players) and I cant wait until it really starts firing on all cylinders.

No, this thread is a case study in the foresight many of us had before the trade was made.

Congratulations (I guess?) on being very happy with the roster. Not all of us are. One of Griffin's duties it to bring Cleveland a championship. Some of us also believe he should be simultaneously setting the team up for lasting success post-LeBron. Using assets and leverage wisely is the key to that.

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, there's a valid argument to be made that Griffin overpaid in the deals he made to clear cap space for LBJ, the Love deal and the Mozgov deal (although, in a case study in hindsight and tail chasing, that one worked out pretty well).

Point is - a trade that "works out" can still be a trade where Griffin "overpaid". The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

No, this thread is a case study in the foresight many of us had before the trade was made.

Congratulations (I guess?) on being very happy with the roster. Not all of us are. One of Griffin's duties it to bring Cleveland a championship. Some of us also believe he should be simultaneously setting the team up for lasting success post-LeBron. Using assets and leverage wisely is the key to that.

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, there's a valid argument to be made that Griffin overpaid in the deals he made to clear cap space for LBJ, the Love deal and the Mozgov deal (although, in a case study in hindsight and tail chasing, that one worked out pretty well).

Point is - a trade that "works out" can still be a trade where Griffin "overpaid". The two are not mutually exclusive.

If you could have avoided "over payment" but ended up with a weaker roster as a result, you achieved nothing toward the ultimate goal. You need to put together the best group of 7-8 players as you can in a universe of limited talent options to acquire. Your team's success in the playoffs is going to hinge on the strength of your best 3-4 guys who will consume well over half the on-court minutes each night. If you give Love's 38-40 minutes a night at PF in the playoffs to someone not as good, you need to somehow make up the difference with limited minutes left to consume. Bottom line is you never really overpay if you get true quality in return because so many options are just interchangeable guys.

 

[CommD]

Trade cannot be judged in CLE's favor until one of two things happen: CAVS win the championship THIS year, or Kevin Love at least opts-in to his contract for next year.

Any other outcome will constitute a massive failure on the part of team management. And because they will not be in a position to replace Love, losing James the following year becomes a real possibility, if not probability.

Way to much leverage for Kevin Love to hold. If it were up to me, Love would be on his way to BOS today for Bradley, Olynyck, Sullinger, and. 1st. I"m sure Danny could convince him to opt-in/re-sign.

But alas, c'est la vie... Will just have to keep hearing Mike & Mike sending Love to LAL EVERYDAY.