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Bowe Bergdahl freed by Taliban after five years of captivity

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What cracks me up is the level of indignation by some folks.... Here's a simple question: who should go on trial first, Bowe Bergdahl or George W. Bush and Dick Cheney?

Bowe Bergdahl.

What criminal statute was violated by Bush and/or Cheney? If they so clearly should have been prosecuted in a court of law for a criminal offense, then why didn't the Democratic-controlled House impeach them in 2007/2008? Why hasn't some Democratic U.S. Attorney filed charges against them?

Bush and Cheney haven't been in office for more than six years, and during every day of their 8-year term, they were the subject of constant criticism/complaint/discussion. They stood for reelection in 2004, and won. Nobody overlooked or failed to consider their actions -- people just disagreed regarding the merits of their policies. And even if their policies were completely fucked up, that still doesn't mean they committed a criminal act.

This thread has been rightly dead for six months because there was nothing new, and was only bumped after a new piece of news came out. In contrast, excuse-makers on the left are still obsessing over guys who haven't been in office for more than six years, and using them as bogeyman to deflect blame from other actions that are still current.

In contrast, Bowe Bergdahl is being prosecuted for a very simple reason -- he quite clearly committed at least one serious violation of the UCMJ.

But yeah, if some of you agree to put Bush et al on trial, I'm fine with putting Bergdahl on trial. Accountability, right?

So until Bush and Cheney are prosecuted for some unspecified criminal act, deserters shouldn't be prosecuted either? For that matter, there's no logical reason to limit it just to deserters -- anyone in the military who committed any crime shouldn't be prosecuted until Bush and Cheney are prosecuted. War crimes, rapes, assaults -- hey, let's just forget all about that stuff because...BUSH AND CHENEY!!!!

For that matter, why bother prosecuting any crimes at all? I mean, I think it's complete bullshit that so many people were upset about Darren Wilson shooting Michael Brown, when Bush and Cheney are still walking the streets!
 
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I think I shows a pretty serious level of neglect to not investigate the circumstances around Bergdahls appearance and if the record shows he deserted, to not prosecute him. If after trial they decide to reduce sentence based upon being held by the Taliban then fine, but the service men and women who volunteered and abided by thier commitment are owed answers and accountability.
 
I think I shows a pretty serious level of neglect to not investigate the circumstances around Bergdahls appearance and if the record shows he deserted, to not prosecute him. If after trial they decide to reduce sentence based upon being held by the Taliban then fine, but the service men and women who volunteered and abided by thier commitment are owed answers and accountability.

I agree. This act shouldn't lack negative consequences, if it is proven that he deserted. Soldiers who stick it out for longer/their term and do it according to the rules deserve more than for the gov't to just throw up their hands and say, "he's been through enough." They've been thru some shit, too. And they didn't try to run away from the people protecting their asses.
 
What's the upside of not prosecuting him?
 
No decision has been made so far.

LINK: http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/27/media/fox-nbc-bergdahl-story/

The Fox and NBC stories prompted strong denials from Pentagon officials.

"The reporting from Fox News and NBC on Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl is patently false," Army Major General Ron Lewis said in a statement Tuesday.

"Let me just put a fork in this right now if I can," Rear Adm. John Kirby said at a news conference Tuesday. "No decision has been made with respect to the case of Sgt. Bergdahl. None. And there is no timeline to make that decision."

Another official called the Fox News report "speculative in nature."
 
I think I shows a pretty serious level of neglect to not investigate the circumstances around Bergdahls appearance and if the record shows he deserted, to not prosecute him. If after trial they decide to reduce sentence based upon being held by the Taliban then fine, but the service men and women who volunteered and abided by thier commitment are owed answers and accountability.

There are a shit-ton of guys who regret enlisting, but thy don't desert because of the commonly understood negative consequences of doing so. Basically, if you desert, especially in a combat zone, you have fucked yourself for life.

No brig time and a book/movie deal doesn't exactly send that message clearly.
 
The Army may not prosecute because there may not be enough evidence. Even in military justice, Courts Martial require an evidentiary threshold of "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" (checked with a JAG this morning). The Army's case may not be as strong as most would assume.

"Article 85: Desertion

(a) Any member of the armed forces who–

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or [....]"


Based on the available evidence, there is a preponderance that points to the intent to desert, and to desert to avoid military service at the front. The evidence establishes motive, intent and preparation for a desertion. This is enough for guilty finding in a 15-6 but is enough to convict Beyond a Reasonable Doubt? Let consider what we know:

1. Emails illustrate a state of mind as antagonistic toward the Army and the mission. But, evidently, none of the emails clearly demonstrates a desire or intent or implies there result of his disgruntlement would be walking off the FOB.

2. Mailing of possessions far prior to the end of the deployment. This is unusual and suspicious but can explained away by any number of reasons. Lack of living space, living light, etc.

3. Repeated verbal assertions that he would leave the theater of operations to China, India etc. Perhaps this is most damning, but then again, Joe says stupid shit all the time, and it may be difficult to determine what was said in jest and what can be construed as intent.

4. Reports of a note, stating directly he was deserting, are apocryphal.

Is it enough to convict? Meh, maybe. Then again, this is a Court Martial you don't want to lose.
 
The Army may not prosecute because there may not be enough evidence. Even in military justice, Courts Martial require an evidentiary threshold of "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" (checked with a JAG this morning). The Army's case may not be as strong as most would assume.

"Article 85: Desertion

(a) Any member of the armed forces who–

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or [....]"


Based on the available evidence, there is a preponderance that points to the intent to desert, and to desert to avoid military service at the front. The evidence establishes motive, intent and preparation for a desertion. This is enough for guilty finding in a 15-6 but is enough to convict Beyond a Reasonable Doubt? Let consider what we know:

1. Emails illustrate a state of mind as antagonistic toward the Army and the mission. But, evidently, none of the emails clearly demonstrates a desire or intent or implies there result of his disgruntlement would be walking off the FOB.

2. Mailing of possessions far prior to the end of the deployment. This is unusual and suspicious but can explained away by any number of reasons. Lack of living space, living light, etc.

3. Repeated verbal assertions that he would leave the theater of operations to China, India etc. Perhaps this is most damning, but then again, Joe says stupid shit all the time, and it may be difficult to determine what was said in jest and what can be construed as intent.

4. Reports of a note, stating directly he was deserting, are apocryphal.

Is it enough to convict? Meh, maybe. Then again, this is a Court Martial you don't want to lose.

Actually, it may be a court-martial they (at least the Administration) very well does want to lose. After all, if you give him a trial and he's acquitted, then the "we traded for a deserter" narrative disappears. Deciding not to charge him will look (and be) political.

The thing is that they'd also charge him with being UA, which seems pretty much a slam dunk.
So at the least, they'd try him for that as well as a lesser included offense they could be confident of winning. That's normally what's done in desertion cases..

The toughest part of the Article 85 charge is proving (a)(1) "intent to remain away therefrom permanently" beyond a reasonable doubt. If all the leaked stuff about his notes, emails, etc. are true -- and they've been consistent so I suspect they're probably accurate -- then they've got a good shot at a conviction.

His defense team undoubtedly will argue that his rumored attempts to escape prove that he didn't intend to remain away "permanently", Of course, the fact that he was trying to escape the Taliban does not mean that he wanted to return to duty versus just getting the hell away from the Taliban and doing whatever else it was he wanted to do.

Just a guess here, but the leaks may be explained by plea bargaining/negotiations, and some opposed to any such deal leaking the facts. Yes, a prostpective charge sheet may have been sent to Bergdahl's attorney, but the decision to actually file it may be leverage in negotiations. So, no "decision" has yet been made.

I personally think that there is more than enough evidence for this to proceed to court-martial -- the military doesn't have the same pressure of never losing cases that exists for civilian prosecutors. In this case in particular, both veterans and the public at large have a right to see this addressed openly rather than in the shadows.
 
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Actually, it may be a court-martial they (at least the Administration) very well does want to lose. After all, if you give him a trial and he's acquitted, then the "we traded for a deserter" narrative disappears. Deciding not to charge him will look (and be) political.

In my view this needn't be a political issue. Seeing things through a partisan lens creates a false reality and both sides of obscured things with their endless posturing. The situation is rather simple:

1. Even if he had deserted we should still have brought him back. It is not up to the Taliban or anyone else to judge him, that is our right. It doesn't matter who is President. To think Bush wouldn't have traded for him is absurd.

2. This is a singular phenomenon in US military history. As the sole POW in the GWOT, his value is much higher than his actual worth. Any administration would be compelled to act.

3. He is a US Soldier. Short of active treason, that doesn't appear to be the case here, we leave no one behind. It is a matter of principle. We don't abandon our values when they become inconvenient (even if he did). No exceptions.

4. I support any course of action that the evidence merits. I don't care about partisan concerns or who scores points. I only care about the rule of law.
 
In my view this needn't be a political issue.

Releasing prisoners from Gitmo is inherently political, and that issue has been a battle between Congress (including members of both parties) and the White House ever since the President took office. The American people have a right to be heard on that issuegiven that they've been told the people held in Gitmo are a danger to us. And then the President's decision to make it a big press conference with the parents ratcheted up whatever inherent political aspect already existed.

In other words, I think the decision to trade terrorists for Bergdahl is political, but that the decision regarding prosecution for desertion should not be. If he's charged and acquitted, that's fine. What I don't want to see is him not being charged because of pressure from the Administration.

1. Even if he had deserted we should still have brought him back.

I'd agree that just because he's a prisoner doesn't mean we should be indifferent as to whether or not he is returned. But I also don't think that means having him returned should be an especially high priority.

It is not up to the Taliban or anyone else to judge him, that is our right.

Right. So he should be punished by us without regard to whatever the Taliban did to him.

It doesn't matter who is President. To think Bush wouldn't have traded for him is absurd. This is a singular phenomenon in US military history. As the sole POW in the GWOT, his value is much higher than his actual worth. Any administration would be compelled to act.

I don't agree with the premise that any Administration would have agreed to trading 5 Gitmo detainees for one POW -- especially a guy who at minimum went UA -- while hostilities were still ongoing. It is one thing to work out trades after a war is over. But this country does not have a consistent practice of exchanging prisoners while a war is still ongoing. That's why the "leave no man behind" ethic -- which I don't think applies to deserters (colloquial) anyway -- doesn't even apply. We're still there, and hostilities are still ongoing.

3. He is a US Soldier. Short of active treason, that doesn't appear to be the case here, we leave no one behind. It is a matter of principle. We don't abandon our values when they become inconvenient (even if he did). No exceptions.

Well, there's a difference of opinion on this among military people. The vast majority of people I know -- mostly senior Marine Corps/Navy types -- pretty much have a "fuck 'em" attitude towards a guy who walked off his post. I'm basing that on discussions with classmates at my 30 year reunion. Yes, you make an effort to get him, but no, you do not break the bank to do so.
 
Releasing prisoners from Gitmo is inherently political, and that issue has been a battle between Congress (including members of both parties) and the White House ever since the President took office. The American people have a right to be heard on that issuegiven that they've been told the people held in Gitmo are a danger to us. And then the President's decision to make it a big press conference with the parents ratcheted up whatever inherent political aspect already existed.

In other words, I think the decision to trade terrorists for Bergdahl is political, but that the decision regarding prosecution for desertion should not be. If he's charged and acquitted, that's fine. What I don't want to see is him not being charged because of pressure from the Administration.



I'd agree that just because he's a prisoner doesn't mean we should be indifferent as to whether or not he is returned. But I also don't think that means having him returned should be an especially high priority.



Right. So he should be punished by us without regard to whatever the Taliban did to him.



I don't agree with the premise that any Administration would have agreed to trading 5 Gitmo detainees for one POW -- especially a guy who at minimum went UA -- while hostilities were still ongoing. It is one thing to work out trades after a war is over. But this country does not have a consistent practice of exchanging prisoners while a war is still ongoing. That's why the "leave no man behind" ethic -- which I don't think applies to deserters (colloquial) anyway -- doesn't even apply. We're still there, and hostilities are still ongoing.



Well, there's a difference of opinion on this among military people. The vast majority of people I know -- mostly senior Marine Corps/Navy types -- pretty much have a "fuck 'em" attitude towards a guy who walked off his post. I'm basing that on discussions with classmates at my 30 year reunion. Yes, you make an effort to get him, but no, you do not break the bank to do so.

I enjoy your viewpoint. It is well thought out.

I have always found it interesting the varying opinions on the issue from various folks who have/are serving. Woe be those who think military people are a monolithic bloc of thought.
 
Bowe Bergdahl.

You want to see Bowe Bergdahl tried before George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the lot of criminals that dragged us into two wars that cost hundreds of thousands of lives and well over a trillion dollars; and also the two chief crooks who oversaw the absolute ravaging of our economy and the theft of again, trillions of dollars??

What criminal statute was violated by Bush and/or Cheney?

  1. illegally spent public dollars on a secret propaganda program to manufacture a false cause for war against Iraq;
  2. misused intelligence reports to deceive Congress and the public about a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda and the the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001;
  3. mislead Congress and the public into believing that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction and posed an imminent threat to the United States;
  4. illegally misspent funds to begin a war in secret prior to congressional authorization;
  5. illegally lied to Congress about the deaths and injuries of members of the U.S. military;
  6. misused classified intelligence information and conspired to identify a covert agent of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA);
  7. illegally misappropriated and misspent public dollars on private contractors in Iraq in violation of standing laws;
  8. detained U.S. citizens and foreign captives indefinitely and without charge;
  9. authorized torture of captives in Afghanistan and Iraq;
  10. kidnapped and transported individuals to countries known to practice torture;
  11. authorized the arrest and detention of at least 2,500 children as enemy combatants in violation of the Geneva Convention, a war crime;
  12. mislead Congress and the public about threats from Iran;
  13. the misuse and intent to misuse Presidential signing statements via the issuance of legal opinions by the Department of Justice and violated the Posse Comitatus Act;
  14. authorized warrantless electronic surveillance of U.S. citizens;
  15. directed telecommunication companies to create databases of the private telephone numbers and emails of U.S. citizens without Congressional knowledge, approval, or oversight;
  16. blatantly violated the law while using signing statements to claim the right to violate laws enacted by Congress;
  17. failed to comply with congressional subpoenas and instructed former executive branch employees not to comply with such subpoenas;
  18. conspired to violate the voting rights of U.S. citizens;
  19. obstructed investigations into the 9/11 attacks;
Most importantly, the President, Vice President, Secretary of State Powell, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and Deputy Sec. of Defense Wolfowitz lied to Congress to justify the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002.

The President violated the several Congressional Acts and laws protecting telecommunications both domestically and abroad.


And the President violated the Geneva Convention, the Convention Against Torture, the Civil Service Act, the Hatch Act.


If they so clearly should have been prosecuted in a court of law for a criminal offense, then why didn't the Democratic-controlled House impeach them in 2007/2008?

This isn't a logical argument. You're saying "if they weren't prosecuted they surely didn't break the law?" I'm not arguing for the Democrats here.

Why hasn't some Democratic U.S. Attorney filed charges against them?

Because the Democrats are equally complicit. Why are you turning this into a political issue? It's not.

Impeachments are, generally, political in nature. There was nothing to be gained, politically, by trying and failing to impeach George Bush. Clinton actually benefited from being impeached as the country grew tired of the scandal and began to blame Republicans for the entire debacle..

Bush and Cheney haven't been in office for more than six years, and during every day of their 8-year term, they were the subject of constant criticism/complaint/discussion.

What does this mean?

They stood for reelection in 2004, and won.

It's highly debatable if they won the first time. I was actively involved as a Democratic activist in 2004 in Ohio for the Kerry campaign - that election is a story in and of itself, but one cannot say Bush had any sort of mandate coming out of 2004.

So, again, I don't know what the point of saying this is.... it's not, logical or germane to the question at hand.

Nobody overlooked or failed to consider their actions -- people just disagreed regarding the merits of their policies. And even if their policies were completely fucked up, that still doesn't mean they committed a criminal act.

I doubt you've investigated this much further than typing this out. Rather than go on about it, just do your research. I think it's actually quite funny you don't think Bush broke the law... I don't know anyone who thinks that, Republican or Democrat.

It's one thing to be cynical like King Stannis and simply say, "heads of state don't get prosecuted..." Makes sense, but still... However, it's another thing to be naive enough to say "Bush didn't break the law."

He clearly broke the law when he wiretapped people's phones.
He clearly broke the law when his Administration lied to Congress.
He clearly broke the law when he authorized torture in violation of American law.

In contrast, excuse-makers on the left are still obsessing over guys who haven't been in office for more than six years, and using them as bogeyman to deflect blame from other actions that are still current.

Q-Tip, what is it with you and continually putting things in terms of "left" or "right?"

Fuck, Obama!

I could care less about his agenda... I am saying it's outrageous how bloodthirsty some people are over Bowe Bergdahl and want to wrap themselves in the flag over dead soldiers -- but they don't give two shits about prosecuting George W. Bush who was chiefly responsible, more so than anyone, for an offensive and unnecessary war.

In contrast, Bowe Bergdahl is being prosecuted for a very simple reason -- he quite clearly committed at least one serious violation of the UCMJ.

And again, I ask, how is that more serious than the guy who started this war to begin with?

So until Bush and Cheney are prosecuted for some unspecified criminal act, deserters shouldn't be prosecuted either?

What I am asking is that people actually think about their public outrage before they go on these tirades.

I don't expect Bush to be prosecuted; but for that very reason, I could give two shits about Bowe Bergdahl being prosecuted.. It's silly to care so vehemently about a deserter but not about the instigator of the war itself.

For that matter, there's no logical reason to limit it just to deserters -- ....
For that matter, why bother prosecuting any crimes at all? I mean, I think it's complete bullshit that so many people were upset about Darren Wilson shooting Michael Brown, when Bush and Cheney are still walking the streets!

You don't really need me to point out the fallacy in your "logical" statement do you?
 
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/bowe-bergdahl-charges-decision/index.html

It's official. Bergdahl will be charged with one count of desertion and one count of misbehavior before the enemy, in violation of Articles 85 and 99, respectively, of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). He faces life in a military prison, busted down to E-1, dishonorable discharge, and forfeiture of pay and allowances.
 
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But, but, but...

7/1/2014 - Susan Rice: “Bowe Bergdahl served the United States with honor and distinction. And we’ll have the opportunity eventually to learn what has transpired in the past years.”

 
Can someone give me a tl;dr about Bowe Bergdahl? I know he was a prisoner in Afghanistan for years, was finally released, and is now facing life in prison? Can someone explain why? My knowledge of legal systems in the military is piss-poor.
 

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