2012-2013 Indians Red Hot Offseason Thread (Bourn signed post 1940)

[Pyro]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

I suppose this confirms what he keeps preaching about being here because of Shapiro and Antonetti.

 

[macbdog]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Free agents I'd like for us to take a look at this offseason

DHs-Delmon Young
OFs-Michael Bourn, Angel Pagan, Ryan Ludwick, Cody Ross, Melky Cabrera, BJ Upton,
1B-James Loney
SP-Liriano, Edwin Jackson, Zambrano

Young- I don't see what he adds to the team. It isn't power, since he didn't even manage 40 XBHs this season despite hitting around Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera all year long. His numbers took another dive this season, as he somehow managed to both walk less and strike out more. Don't want any part of him.

All CFers- For the Tribe to add one of these, that has to mean that they intend on dealing Michael Brantley. He doesn't hit enough to justify a corner spot, but showed he could handle CF. His defense took a tick up, too, and he was league average there. So the question has to be asked: is the FA add more than Brantley?
Bourn- Maybe. Seems like an NL guy to me. Provides speed, and that is about it. The power he showed this year looks like an anomaly. Slumped bad in the second half. Speed tends to get overpaid.
Upton- Tantalizing as always. Intriguing, although what you see is what you get- an OPS around 700, a bunch of strikeouts, few walks, but some pop and stolen bases. I think he could help, but will he accept a corner spot? He fought going to CF, remember.
Angel Pagan- I like him, I think he provides better D than Brantley. Giants may not let him get away, and are you sure he is a FA?
Melky Cabrera- If he does here what he did in KC, he would be a good addition. But sure as hell not on a multiyear deal.
Ludwick-Ross- These are guys you sift through in January.
James Loney- He is the younger version of Casey Kotchman. Great glove, no power, supposed to be a contact hitter who doesn't hit for average. Former first round pick. I say no.
Francisco Liriano- Why? No, really, why? He was awful this year. Was awful last year. Awful the year before. He is a left-handed Fausto/Roberto. If you want a pitcher in the lineup who makes you pound your head into the wall with his inconsistency, why not just resign Hernandez? They are the same pitcher at this point. The slider that made Liriano so unhittable 5 years ago is gone. It is why he smoked his arm. Let someone else try and get him fixed.
Edwin Jackson- This guy I am all for. sign me up.
Carlos Zambrano- The team has enough relievers to sift through, they don't need to add Zambrano to that mix.

Guys I think the team should target:

Josh Hamilton- The Rangers are going to let an MVP-caliber hitter walk away. This alone is going to scare off many, many teams, and I wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't get anything more than 3 years offered. Also, if there was one bigtime player who the Tribe could talk into joining their culture, I think it may be Hamilton.

Mike Napoli- the Napoli who has existed for every year but 2011. That is, a mediocre defensive catcher who slugs and strikes out with reckless abandon. I think after coming back down to earth, teams aren't going to get stupid over him like fans wanted last offseason. What he does provide, though- big power and an 800 OPS- is something the Tribe could use in a super-util role bouncing between C, 1B and DH.

Edwin Jackson- Made my case for him.

Ervin Santana- Someone else brought him up, I'm down with that.

If someone has a good list of the impending FAs, please post. Cot's list seems out of date, and man is it slim pickings.

 

[Funny Man Rocco]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

God, the indians have left me numb towards anything they do anymore.

When I saw we hired Francona:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ussCHoQttyQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[AZ_]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Free agents I'd like for us to take a look at this offseason

DHs-Delmon Young
OFs-Michael Bourn, Angel Pagan, Ryan Ludwick, Cody Ross, Melky Cabrera, BJ Upton,
1B-James Loney
SP-Liriano, Edwin Jackson, Zambrano

Literally laughed out loud when I got to James Loney.

 

[OhioSlayer]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Terry Francona has out clauses in his contract in the event that the people he works for are dismissed.

Makes you wonder if Shapiro and Antonetti didn't bring this up and to help save their own jobs??? Pretty smart on both sides really.

 

[Soda]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Francona has a "blow-it-up" clause. Hilarious. :chuckles:

I don't do these often, but only in Cleveland do you need to have a "blow-it-up" clause because our stakes are always sitting in gasoline waiting for the day...

 

[AZ_]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Just a testament to how well respected Shapiro is around the league. And to some extent, Antonetti as well.


Nothing we didn't already know.

 

[macbdog]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Just a testament to how well respected Shapiro is around the league. And to some extent, Antonetti as well.


Nothing we didn't already know.

i wonder if he bails if Shapiro ends up pursuing and getting the commish job? Wouldnt be a dismissal. Plus, it makes sense_ he wont be obligated to be a lame duck.

 

[AZ_]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Probably couldn't exercise the out clause if he left voluntarily for another position.

Although I think Shapiro would be an underdog for the commissioner spot.

 

[Damage]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

It's obvious the Indians must explore trades with some of their current players, the obvious being Perez, Choo & maybe (hopefully) Asdrubal. Also, along with parting ways with Hafner, Sizemore & Kotchman, I really think we just need to wash our hands from Ubaldo's stench. Whilst I disagree, some could argue that $5.75M for an innings eater is acceptable, considering how bare the market is.

Contracts: By my math, this is what we'd save by cutting/not re-signing Sizemore, Hafner, Ubaldo, Kotchman, Roberto, etc:

Hafner: Due $13M, $2.5M buyout - net saving of $10.5M
Ubaldo: Due $5.75, $1M buyout - net saving of $4.75M
Sizemore: $5M
Kotchman: $3M
Slowly: $1.5M (Colorado payed $1.25M)
Hernandez: $9M
Raffy Perez: $2M
Jack Hannahan: $1.135M

Again, by my math, that's $36.885M off the books.

Potential FA Targets:
Many names have been mentioned, few I like, most I dislike. Here are some guys I would look at:
SP:
1. Brandon McCarthy - Not a big strikeout guy but a more than capable MOR pitcher. Also has been very durable, sans the pitch off the dome. Made $4.275 last year & his production stayed around the same.
2. Anibal Sanchez - If it get's into a bidding war, forget it (could see KC paying a ton for him).
3. James Shields - I like his production more than Marcum's and is use to pitching in the A.L.
4. Shaun Marcum - decent pitcher, turning 30, but will be looking for a pay day (made $7+M last year) and he's a N.L. pitcher.
5. Ervin Santana - Up & down, you never know which Santana you're going to get.

RP:
1. Brandon League - Once we trade Perez, he could fill the role Pestano held last year. Could demand more than I'd give him


Fielders:
1. Josh Hamilton, LF - This is tough. We all know the story, no need to lament over it. High risk - high reward. If this organization truly thinks we're ready to compete with some of the core players we have, then it makes sense. If not, don't waste the capital. If the stories about his "awkwardness in the clubhouse" are true, stay away. With our SP, I would be very hesitant in signing him. 3 year deal, with a club option on the 3rd.
2. Mike Napoli - Considering his BA dropped a ton (but still put up a decent .812 OPS) he could be had on the cheap (Made $9.4M last season). Can C, DH or play 1st (I'd sign him as a DH).
3. B.J. Upton - ughh, pure definition of cock tease.


The FA class is bare as fuck. I would love to go the Mariners route (albeit with better results). Trade proven assets for young up and coming MLB ready players (Montero, Smoak - who was pretty good the 2nd half of the season).

 

[MirORich]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Sorry, but as bad as he's been, there is no way you cut Ubaldo loose. Not with a new manager and new pitching coach coming aboard. Not with a salary of $6 million. Not with the ludicrous amount of money that 12-12, 4.50 ERA type guys will get on the FA market.

Yes, we've all seen him stink it up for almost two years now. And he may never be the pitcher he once was pre July 2010, but on essentially a 1 year deal, his upside is still as high or better than just about anyone else who we could sign for that price. I'd rather gamble on him one more year than give 3 years and 24 million to another average 30 year old plus pitcher.

It's obvious the Indians must explore trades with some of their current players, the obvious being Perez, Choo & maybe (hopefully) Asdrubal. Also, along with parting ways with Hafner, Sizemore & Kotchman, I really think we just need to wash our hands from Ubaldo's stench. Whilst I disagree, some could argue that $5.75M for an innings eater is acceptable, considering how bare the market is.

Contracts: By my math, this is what we'd save by cutting/not re-signing Sizemore, Hafner, Ubaldo, Kotchman, Roberto, etc:

Hafner: Due $13M, $2.5M buyout - net saving of $10.5M
Ubaldo: Due $5.75, $1M buyout - net saving of $4.75M
Sizemore: $5M
Kotchman: $3M
Slowly: $1.5M (Colorado payed $1.25M)
Hernandez: $9M
Raffy Perez: $2M
Jack Hannahan: $1.135M

Again, by my math, that's $36.885M off the books.

Potential FA Targets:
Many names have been mentioned, few I like, most I dislike. Here are some guys I would look at:
SP:
1. Brandon McCarthy - Not a big strikeout guy but a more than capable MOR pitcher. Also has been very durable, sans the pitch off the dome. Made $4.275 last year & his production stayed around the same.
2. Anibal Sanchez - If it get's into a bidding war, forget it (could see KC paying a ton for him).
3. James Shields - I like his production more than Marcum's and is use to pitching in the A.L.
4. Shaun Marcum - decent pitcher, turning 30, but will be looking for a pay day (made $7+M last year) and he's a N.L. pitcher.
5. Ervin Santana - Up & down, you never know which Santana you're going to get.

RP:
1. Brandon League - Once we trade Perez, he could fill the role Pestano held last year. Could demand more than I'd give him


Fielders:
1. Josh Hamilton, LF - This is tough. We all know the story, no need to lament over it. High risk - high reward. If this organization truly thinks we're ready to compete with some of the core players we have, then it makes sense. If not, don't waste the capital. If the stories about his "awkwardness in the clubhouse" are true, stay away. With our SP, I would be very hesitant in signing him. 3 year deal, with a club option on the 3rd.
2. Mike Napoli - Considering his BA dropped a ton (but still put up a decent .812 OPS) he could be had on the cheap (Made $9.4M last season). Can C, DH or play 1st (I'd sign him as a DH).
3. B.J. Upton - ughh, pure definition of cock tease.


The FA class is bare as fuck. I would love to go the Mariners route (albeit with better results). Trade proven assets for young up and coming MLB ready players (Montero, Smoak - who was pretty good the 2nd half of the season).

 

[Damage]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Sorry, but as bad as he's been, there is no way you cut Ubaldo loose. Not with a new manager and new pitching coach coming aboard. Not with a salary of $6 million. Not with the ludicrous amount of money that 12-12, 4.50 ERA type guys will get on the FA market.

Yes, we've all seen him stink it up for almost two years now. And he may never be the pitcher he once was pre July 2010, but on essentially a 1 year deal, his upside is still as high or better than just about anyone else who we could sign for that price. I'd rather gamble on him one more year than give 3 years and 24 million to another average 30 year old plus pitcher.

That's the counter to my argument And I get it, I just don't agree with it.

 

[Stark]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

Shelley Duncan and Luke Carlin to test the FA Market

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2...shelley-duncan-luke-carlin-elect-free-agency/

Cleveland Indians outfielder Shelley Duncan and catcher Luke Carlin have elected to refuse their minor league assignments and enter free agency heading into the off-season which will bridge 2012 and 2013.

Duncan, in his third season with the Indians, was counted on to provide relief as a right-handed corner outfielder, but largely failed to add consistent value, hitting .203/.288/.676 through 81 games. Interestingly enough, he finished each of his three seasons with exactly 11 home runs and 29 runs scored. The 32-year-old was designated for assignement on August 29, capping off what was one of the worst months of baseball in recent history. The gaping hole in Cleveland’s left field remains largely unfilled.

Carlin, 31, managed to scratch the surface of the Indians’ big league roster in 2012, hitting .214/.214/.286 with two runs scored in just 14 at-bats.

See ya, and see ya.

 

[Steve_424]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

It's all about the pitching for the Indians. Take a look at this season's regular season leaders in team quality starts:

1) New York Mets
2) Philadelphia
3) St. Louis
4) Cincinnati
5) Washington
6) Los Angeles Dodgers
7) San Francisco
8) Los Angeles Angels
9) Miami
10) Detroit
11) Oakland
12) Tampa Bay

The Yankees, Rangers, Braves, and Orioles made the postseason but fell outside of the Top 12. The Rangers and Yankees were #1 and #2 in offense respectively, while the Orioles and Braves fall outside the spectrum.

Cleveland ranked 24th.

So out of the 10 teams that made it, 6 were in the top 11 in pitching. The two that were tops in offense had names such as C.C. Sabathia, Andy Pettite, and Yu Darvish to throw out there in critical games.

Now let's look back to the Indians.

2011 Quality Start Rank: 17th
2010 Quality Start Rank: 27th
2009 Quality Start Rank: 25th
2008 Quality Start Rank: 9th
2007 Quality Start Rank: 1st
2006 Quality Start Rank: 6th
2005 Quality Start Rank: 5th

2006 is a bit of an outlier as that was a 78 win team. 2007 was a 96 win Division Champion. 2005 was a 93 win team that just missed the postseason. 2008 was a team expected to contend that was ravaged by injuries.

It's clear that when the Indians have had success under current management, it's been when they've had strong starting pitching.

The big issues is nobody knows what to expect from next year's group:

Is Justin Masterson closer to the guy we saw in the 2nd half of 2010 and all of 2011, or is he more the guy we saw in 2012? Can Ubaldo Jimenez be effective enough to even qualify as a solid #3? Can Carlos Carrasco come back healthy and contribute and, if so, how good can he be? Is Zack McCallister more the pitcher he was in the 1st half or the 2nd half? Are Josh Tomlin, Corey Kluber, Jeanmar Gomez, or David Huff ML quality starting pitchers?

It also leads to questions on how you improve the rotation.

There's free agency - would Scott Baker, Francisco Liriano, Brandon McCarthy, Ervin Santana, or any other realistic target make enough of a difference, and at what cost?

There's trades - teams like Washington and Tampa with strong SP depth might be willing to deal, but who would they be asking for?

One thing is for certain - if the Indians expect to seriously contend now and/or in the future, they'll need to find a way to build a strong starting rotation.

 

[jhard]

Re: 2012-2013 Indians Offseason Thread (Francona hired)

how the heck did we crack top 25.

I can't believe they finished outside the bottom 3 seemed like we went weeks between QS's.