2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[BimboColesHair]

How many guys have won Finals games that led to championships? How many guys have as good of a "Career Arc" (which is not measured by TS% btw) as Irving at his age?

Not many, I think... damn sure not 15.

Playoff performance doesn't factor into NBA superstardom.

Regular season RPM does.

 

[gourimoko]

So you think Kyrie is more like a top 5 player in the NBA then?

I think Kyrie is a Top 10 player in the NBA, somewhere in the 8-10 range.

I think if we look at the playoffs, last year, he was Top 5 in the league without question. Coach K said he was the best guard in the NBA during the playoffs; I agree with that.

Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and Lowry are all playing better than Irving so far this season -- just in case one wishes to retort with what I've already agreed upon.

 

[TyGuy]

I have a better question. Let's say you get to be the GM of each of the other 29 teams in the NBA. You get to have Kyrie Irving instead of your starting point guard, or you can choose who you have instead. Which teams do you not take Kyrie over their present starting PG? Factors such as salary, age, health, talent, and so on would of course be factors on which player would be better for their team.

No Gm, not even our own is going to take Kyrie over Steph Curry. Chris Paul is still currently better without question, but he is older. I still bet a lot of GMS take him. Westbrook also would be taken by everybody. If you consider Harden a point guard now, him too.

 

[Soar]

 

[BimboColesHair]

Anyone can make that shot...he's not a superstar after all.

 

[gourimoko]

No Gm, not even our own is going to take Kyrie over Steph Curry. Chris Paul is still currently better without question, but he is older. I still bet a lot of GMS take him. Westbrook also would be taken by everybody. If you consider Harden a point guard now, him too.

Well, let's talk about this...

I agree, Steph goes ahead of Irving.. Steph is 4 years older, and will turn 29 in a couple of weeks; so, as of right now, if you're building to win now, you go with Steph. In 2 years, though? I doubt it.

Westbrook.. no question there, but I suppose it depends on your team makeup. Westbrook isn't the pinnacle of efficiency. And while he's doing something amazing by averaging a triple-double, one might argue that he's doing certain things that make competing for a championship somewhat impossible - like stealing rebounds or doing silly things to generate 1-2 more assists per game. But that's another conversation entirely.

No one would take Paul over Irving unless they wanted to win RIGHT now, didn't care about his age, or health, and already had a team filled with scorers. The Clippers would trade Paul for Irving today if offered, IMHO - and that says a lot with respect to @Scholar 's question.

Harden, yeah, no doubt... but if Harden's a PG then so is LeBron or hell, even Durant or Draymond for that matter.

 

[TyGuy]

I think Kyrie is a Top 10 player in the NBA, somewhere in the 8-10 range.

I think if we look at the playoffs, last year, he was Top 5 in the league without question. Coach K said he was the best guard in the NBA during the playoffs; I agree with that.

Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and Lowry are all playing better than Irving so far this season -- just in case one wishes to retort with what I've already agreed upon.

Just off the top of my head:
LeBron, Leonard, Curry, Paul, Durant, Davis, Cousins, Butler, G Freak, Westbrook, Harden are all without question better; thats 11 guys right there. Then you have quite a few guys not on here that are playing better than him, and another group of guys that are around the same level.

Top 10 for Kyrie Irving is extremely generous. Good luck finding anybody outside of cavs fans that think this.

 

[gourimoko]

@TyGuy I think where some of the disconnect is, is with respect to how you're evaluating Irving..

For example, Irving was absolutely amazing in the Pistons series in the playoffs; yet I recall you saying he wasn't very good at all.

Perhaps if we can reconcile this difference we can come to some understanding as to why you are evaluating Irving so differently than many of the rest of us who would likely argue you are severely underrating him?

 

[TyGuy]

Anyone can make that shot...he's not a superstar after all.

Logical fallacy.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Logical fallacy.

Being a smartass.

 

[gourimoko]

Just off the top of my head:
LeBron, Leonard, Curry, Paul, Durant, Davis, Cousins, Butler, G Freak, Westbrook, Harden are all without question better; thats 11 guys right there. Then you have quite a few guys not on here that are playing better than him, and another group of guys that are around the same level.

Top 10 for Kyrie Irving is extremely generous. Good luck finding anybody outside of cavs fans that think this.

I wouldn't put Cousins on that list of players ahead of Kyrie as I think they're somewhat comparable. Also, with respect to the question, I'm pretty sure Irving would fetch more than a mid-first and Buddy Hield, but that's another conversation.

I also don't put Paul, being constantly injured and never getting out of the first round, ahead of Irving.

So I've got:

LeBron, Leonard, Curry, Durant, Davis, Giannis, Westbrook and Harden. I'd also put Butler ahead of Irving on a seasonal average basis, but not with respect to talent, or careers; Irving is ahead there IMHO.

And with all that said I think Irving is right there with Butler and Cousins, that 8-10 (11?) space. I think Cousins could be much better than he is, but he's a headcase. Butler is playing really well right now and is having a phenomenal season, but I think Irving is the better player between the two overall given past accomplishments - and again, I think Irving has the higher ceiling between the two players, but that remains to be seen.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Just off the top of my head:
LeBron, Leonard, Curry, Paul, Durant, Davis, Cousins, Butler, G Freak, Westbrook, Harden are all without question better; thats 11 guys right there. Then you have quite a few guys not on here that are playing better than him, and another group of guys that are around the same level.

I'd add Paul George to that list for sure, and probably in the top 5.

I think Kyrie may be one of the top 5 offensive players in the league. But his defense is...average at best, and that really should bring him down a bit.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I wouldn't put Cousins on that list of players ahead of Kyrie as I think they're somewhat comparable. Also, with respect to the question, I'm pretty sure Irving would fetch more than a mid-first and Buddy Hield, but that's another conversation.

I also don't put Paul, being constantly injured and never getting out of the first round, ahead of Irving.

So I've got:

LeBron, Leonard, Curry, Durant, Davis, Giannis, Westbrook and Harden. I'd also put Butler ahead of Irving on a seasonal average basis, but not with respect to talent, or careers; Irving is ahead there IMHO.

And with all that said I think Irving is right there with Butler and Cousins, that 8-10 (11?) space. I think Cousins could be much better than he is, but he's a headcase. Butler is playing really well right now and is having a phenomenal season, but I think Irving is the better player between the two overall given past accomplishments - and again, I think Irving has the higher ceiling between the two players, but that remains to be seen.

Also, we are currently in what I think is the most talented period in the NBA's history.

Gone are the days where there are only ~5 or so superstars. I think you can make the argument that about 12 guys are superstars right now, with a few more on the cusp of becoming one.

 

[TyGuy]

I wouldn't use what the Kings got as a gauge of value and I think everybody can agree with me here. Fuck the Sacramento Kings ownership and front office. They are the most inept and dysfunctional bunch in all of sports.

This is a team that a year earlier did a salary dump and gave up an unprotected first the year after Cousins was slated to be a free agent, and two pick swaps and they were the ones that included a lottery pick in the deal. So that they could sign free agents headed by the freshly kicked off team Rajon Rondo.

Apparently they had no idea what the stretch provision was because they could have signed 2 of those free agents with it. Why would they though? A rookie GM with 0 business or front office experience shouldn't be expected to know how the CBA works!

Now the team is going to tank, but has to swap picks and they are sure to be shitty on 2019 where they have their unprotected pick going to Philly. You know that bitch will be the #1 pick too. The Kings have never once won the lottery, but bet your ass they do when the pick is going elsewhere.

 

[gourimoko]

I'd add Paul George to that list for sure, and probably in the top 5.

Since his injury?

I would've agreed with you even right after the injury, because the assumption would be that he'd return to form. But he's just not been the same player. While his efficiency is up this year, he's nowhere near as good of a defender as he was before.

Again, I'd have agreed a few years back; but this PG is not the same player, IMHO.

I think Kyrie may be one of the top 5 offensive players in the league. But his defense is...average at best, and that really should bring him down a bit.

Sure, I agree Irving's not Top 5 overall; but just to be clear, you could say the same thing about Harden and Thomas. You can also poke quite a few holes into Westbrook's game if you wanted to.