Andrew Wiggins

[Man Called X]

Changing the tone slightly...is it just me or are all of wiggins jaw dropping plays just a bit meh. Hes like the most boring 'amazing dunker' i can remember.

I've never been impressed by him. Still not. Would still take Jabari Parker over him.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Changing the tone slightly...is it just me or are all of wiggins jaw dropping plays just a bit meh. Hes like the most boring 'amazing dunker' i can remember.

I loled at "slightly."

My rankings for this draft since we won the lottery were:
1) Embiid
2) Wiggins
3) Parker

And I stand by those now (that is, if Embiid gets healthy and it doesn't affect his play). Wiggins will be a top 10 player in his own right one day, but in my opinion a healthy Embiid could challenge Davis for the best big man in the league one day (I'm that high on him). Joel's size and length combined with his fluid movement and incredible skillset, including post moves, shotblocking, and an underrated jumper, all make a jaw dropping combination, and on top of all that he's only played basketball for 4 years!

I would take Joel over Wiggins despite the risk right now and shoot for the stars because I'm confident that if healthy, he's by far the best prospect that will come from this draft.

 

[gourimoko]

......

I loled at "slightly."

My rankings for this draft since we won the lottery were:
1) Embiid
2) Wiggins
3) Parker

And I stand by those now (that is, if Embiid gets healthy and it doesn't affect his play). Wiggins will be a top 10 player in his own right one day, but in my opinion a healthy Embiid could challenge Davis for the best big man in the league one day (I'm that high on him). Joel's size and length combined with his fluid movement and incredible skillset, including post moves, shotblocking, and an underrated jumper, all make a jaw dropping combination, and on top of all that he's only played basketball for 4 years!

I would take Joel over Wiggins despite the risk right now and shoot for the stars because I'm confident that if healthy, he's by far the best prospect that will come from this draft.

If Kyrie were just 10 inches taller he'd be better than LeBron....

Joel has major damage and red flags. He's not healthy and wasn't healthy at the time of the draft (or before it). and besides.. this isn't the Embiid thread...

 

[All4One1ForAll]

......



If Kyrie were just 10 inches taller he'd be better than LeBron....

Joel has major damage and red flags. He's not healthy and wasn't healthy at the time of the draft (or before it). and besides.. this isn't the Embiid thread...

Noel was medically redflagged….so was Jared Sullinger….and then there's guys like Greg Oden who actually wasn't reflagged. You'd be surprised how far technology has come. ACL tears used to be basically career ending injuries. I'm just saying that Embiid has the potential to come back healthy whereas Kyrie can never gain 10 inches.

And I was just continuing the trend of comparing Wiggins to the other prospects. I mean it's ok to mention other guys in a thread about one player if it relates.

 

[Douglar]

Cleaned up a lot of personal bickering.

 

[gourimoko]

Noel was medically redflagged….so was Jared Sullinger….and then there's guys like Greg Oden who actually wasn't reflagged. You'd be surprised how far technology has come. ACL tears used to be basically career ending injuries. I'm just saying that Embiid has the potential to come back healthy whereas Kyrie can never gain 10 inches.

Sure... Embiid has the potential to be the best player in the league, as does Kyrie and does Wiggins, as does Davis, as does Parker, etc... It's about the probability that such a thing could happen, and like the Cavaliers, I tend to agree, the probability that Embiid has a healthy career is closer to zero then I would like.

So, to me, dealing in reality, the draft was between Parker and Wiggins.

You could make a valid case for either one to be drafted over the other, although it's pretty obvious who I think is better. I made the Wiggins case here, but offered the counterargument for Parker in Studio 34 (donate).

And I was just continuing the trend of comparing Wiggins to the other prospects. I mean it's ok to mention other guys in a thread about one player if it relates.

I don't think Embiid has anything to do with anything we've talked about to be honest, but okay, I'll leave it alone.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Sure... Embiid has the potential to be the best player in the league, as does Kyrie and does Wiggins, as does Davis, as does Parker, etc... It's about the probability that such a thing could happen, and like the Cavaliers, I tend to agree, the probability that Embiid has a healthy career is closer to zero then I would like.

So, to me, dealing in reality, the draft was between Parker and Wiggins.

You could make a valid case for either one to be drafted over the other, although it's pretty obvious who I think is better. I made the Wiggins case here, but offered the counterargument for Parker in Studio 34 (donate).



I don't think Embiid has anything to do with anything we've talked about to be honest, but okay, I'll leave it alone.

I mean you say that it's closer to zero than you'd like, but you don't have little information on Embiid's condition/progression. If it was that close to 0, he wouldn't still go #3 overall. Like I said, Noel was a consensus number one pick and then dropped to 5 or 6 because of the injury, which isn't looking to be a problem anymore. Jared Sullinger was supposed to be a high pick in the draft but dropped to the mid 20s because he was "reflagged." The truth is you really don't know and only conjectures can be made. It all depends on how much you're willing to risk in the Wiggins-Embiid debate to be honest because in my opinion with Wiggins you have a higher floor-lower ceiling than Embiid whereas with Embiid you could have Greg Oden 2.0 or Hakeem 2.0. I didn't even necessarily say if I would take the risk. Just pointing out that I believe a healthy Embiid is far and away the best prospect.

Also, I wasn't talking about who the Cavs should have taken. I was just giving my opinion on which player I liked more pre-draft.

And look above my post for what started the comparison. I mean I've seen countless other threads where other guys are brought into a player's thread for the sake of comparison/discussion (like how Dion and Kyrie were always brought into each other's threads), and if you're going to compare Embiid and Wiggins, the discussion is going to have to go into one of the players' threads…

Just shortly wanted to give my thoughts on the Wiggins in relation to Embiid in the original post. Not trying to do anything wrong.

 

[gourimoko]

I mean you say that it's closer to zero than you'd like, but you don't have little information on Embiid's condition/progression. If it was that close to 0, he wouldn't still go #3 overall.

There is a section on this board, that others have mentioned in this conversation, that you do not have access to (donate), where insiders have told us why teams passed on Embiid.

You don't have that information, and I'm not going to disclose it, even at this point; but the fact of the matter is that two teams passed on this guy and for good reasons.

Like I said, Noel was a consensus number one pick and then dropped to 5 or 6 because of the injury, which isn't looking to be a problem anymore.

Noel's injury is actually better, long-term, than Embiid's which is closer to Zydrunas' injury.

Jared Sullinger was supposed to be a high pick in the draft but dropped to the mid 20s because he was "reflagged." The truth is you really don't know and only conjectures can be made.

You mean, I don't know the future?

Umm.. yeah, exactly, that's why my previous post talks about likelihood, probability, etc. That's what teams did when they evaluated his medical records and came to the conclusion that it was better to trade the fucking pick than to draft Embiid.

It all depends on how much you're willing to risk in the Wiggins-Embiid debate to be honest because in my opinion with Wiggins you have a higher floor-lower ceiling than Embiid whereas with Embiid you could have Greg Oden 2.0 or Hakeem 2.0.

Absurd...

I didn't even necessarily say if I would take the risk. Just pointing out that I believe a healthy Embiid is far and away the best prospect.

And again, a health Embiid prospect doesn't exist and never did... It's a hypothetical academic question that has no bearing on reality. That's the point.

Also, I wasn't talking about who the Cavs should have taken. I was just giving my opinion on which player I liked more pre-draft.

You and most of the country, until his medical records were reviewed. Then, rightfully, we moved on.

I'd have had no problem drafting a healthy Embiid... None. But no such player exists.

And look above my post for what started the comparison. I mean I've seen countless other threads where other guys are brought into a player's thread for the sake of comparison/discussion (like how Dion and Kyrie were always brought into each other's threads), and if you're going to compare Embiid and Wiggins, the discussion is going to have to go into one of the players' threads…

Comparing Wiggins to Embiid only makes sense in the context of who you draft, and we're not in the draft. We're talking about Wiggins' future, not Embiid's.

Just shortly wanted to give my thoughts on the Wiggins in relation to Embiid in the original post. Not trying to do anything wrong.

No worries... Like I said, I ain't mad at you.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

There is a section on this board, that others have mentioned in this conversation, that you do not have access to (donate), where insiders have told us why teams passed on Embiid.

You don't have that information, and I'm not going to disclose it, even at this point; but the fact of the matter is that two teams passed on this guy and for good reasons.



Noel's injury is actually better, long-term, than Embiid's which is closer to Zydrunas' injury.



You mean, I don't know the future?

Umm.. yeah, exactly, that's why my previous post talks about likelihood, probability, etc. That's what teams did when they evaluated his medical records and came to the conclusion that it was better to trade the fucking pick than to draft Embiid.



Absurd...



And again, a health Embiid prospect doesn't exist and never did... It's a hypothetical academic question that has no bearing on reality. That's the point.



You and most of the country, until his medical records were reviewed. Then, rightfully, we moved on.

I'd have had no problem drafting a healthy Embiid... None. But no such player exists.



Comparing Wiggins to Embiid only makes sense in the context of who you draft, and we're not in the draft. We're talking about Wiggins' future, not Embiid's.



No worries... Like I said, I ain't mad at you.

Wait wut? What sorcery is this? (in regards to secret section)

And I don't know. I'm fine with you saying that Embiid won't ever be healthy, but personally I just think it's possible we do see a healthy Embiid. Philly was right about Noel, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that if there really was absolutely 0 possibility he became healthy, then a 700 mil dollar franchise wouldn't have just wasted the pick and instead would have drafted one of the other prospects like Exum, who actually seemed really promising at the time, as some people were saying he was part of the clear upper tier in the draft with the other 3.

Also, I'm curious why you think the Hakeem comparison (that is, if he reaches his absolute max. potential) is so far off.

 

[gourimoko]

Wait wut? What sorcery is this? (in regards to secret section)

http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/gold-name-and-studio-34-access.44787/

And I don't know. I'm fine with you saying that Embiid won't ever be healthy, but personally I just think it's possible we do see a healthy Embiid.

I'm not saying he "won't ever be healthy," I'm saying the likelihood that he is healthy throughout his career is minimal.

Philly was right about Noel,

I don't think folks thought that Noel's career was over. His injury is very different than Embiid's, and we have seen people recover from ACL/MCL damage.

But Embiid's injury is something that the Cleveland Clinic has had much experience with, our franchise has first hand experience with, and we saw what it did to Yao Ming's career.

Foot injuries are brutal, and yes, they can end careers before they ever begin.

so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that if there really was absolutely 0 possibility he became healthy,

I don't think anyone said there was "absolutely zero possibility anyone could become healthy." That's a strawman.

then a 700 mil dollar franchise wouldn't have just wasted the pick and instead would have drafted one of the other prospects like Exum, who actually seemed really promising at the time, as some people were saying he was part of the clear upper tier in the draft with the other 3.

This was a top-heavy draft, and Embiid was atop of that draft class for quite some time. For a rebuilding team, it makes much more sense to draft Embiid 3rd, especially if your intention is to continue to tank the following season.

The 76ers are/were swinging for the fences, and that's been written about by many a sportswriter.

Also, I'm curious why you think the Hakeem comparison (that is, if he reaches his absolute max. potential) is so far off.

Because I'm old enough to remember Hakeem Olajuwon play basketball, and Embiid showing flashes of a post game is so far from being Olajuwon; it's like when folks compared Wiggins to Jordan or McGrady -- I thought that was equally absurd.

Can these players live up to those expectations? Possibly. But I think the likelihood is so remote that it's not really worth discussion. I prefer the more grounded view that these guys will reach the most likely projected outcome.

Yes, I see the Olajuwon-esque nature of Embiid, I get it, but to say there is a strong (or even remotely probable) chance that he will live up to that is just too tall an order at this point.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/gold-name-and-studio-34-access.44787/



I'm not saying he "won't ever be healthy," I'm saying the likelihood that he is healthy throughout his career is minimal.


I don't think folks thought that Noel's career was over. His injury is very different than Embiid's, and we have seen people recover from ACL/MCL damage.

But Embiid's injury is something that the Cleveland Clinic has had much experience with, our franchise has first hand experience with, and we saw what it did to Yao Ming's career.

Foot injuries are brutal, and yes, they can end careers before they ever begin.


I don't think anyone said there was "absolutely zero possibility anyone could become healthy." That's a straw man.

"And again, a health Embiid prospect doesn't exist and never did... It's a hypothetical academic question that has no bearing on reality. That's the point."

I took that from that quote.

This was a top-heavy draft, and Embiid was atop of that draft class for quite some time. For a rebuilding team, it makes much more sense to draft Embiid 3rd, especially if your intention is to continue to tank the following season.

The 76ers are/were swinging for the fences, and that's been written about by many a sportswriter.

Yeah I agree. That's what I'm saying. Teams who want to swing for the fences and hope Embiid ends up healthy would do so because his potential is off the charts compared to the other guys in the draft.

Because I'm old enough to remember Hakeem Olajuwon play basketball, and Embiid showing flashes of a post game is so far from being Olajuwon; it's like when folks compared Wiggins to Jordan or McGrady -- I thought that was equally absurd.

Can these players live up to those expectations? Possibly. But I think the likelihood is so remote that it's not really worth discussion. I prefer the more grounded view that these guys will reach the most likely projected outcome.

Yes, I see the Olajuwon-esque nature of Embiid, I get it, but to say there is a strong (or even remotely probable) chance that he will live up to that is just too tall an order at this point.

During Olajuwon's first year in college, he wasn't the post player everyone remembers him as. He always had the potential to have an advanced post game though because of his fluidity and flashes of post moves, which I think Joel showed a lot of in college. Hakeem was a little bit quicker than Joel, but Joel has about 2 inches on Hakeem, as well as more length and mass. They were/are both extremely athletic, as well, and they both showed high basketball IQ at a young age considering they both only started playing basketball at around 15. Furthermore, the development year to year that each showed was remarkable.

Embiid played more minutes as a freshman than Hakeem did, and per 40 minutes, their stats were extremely similar (Embiid's were arguably better, though I know that this doesn't matter too much).

Honestly, there are just so many similarities that I can't discount the possibility he reaches that ceiling, as extreme as it may be. It was blasphemous to many people at one time to say that Kobe or Lebron would reach MJ type levels (please don't read into this analogy too much; it was the first one that came to mind, my point being that you never know; I mean there's a reason both Olajuwon and Embiid were each thought of as the clear number 1 prospect at one time), but both have come arguably close (LBJ closer than Kobe of course). All I'm saying is that if Embiid can come even close to his full potential, then I wouldn't be shocked to see a Hakeem lite.

 

[gourimoko]

Honestly, there are just so many similarities that I can't discount the possibility he reaches that ceiling, as extreme as it may be. It was blasphemous to many people at one time to say that Kobe or Lebron would reach MJ type levels (please don't read into this analogy too much; it was the first one that came to mind, my point being that you never know; I mean there's a reason both Olajuwon and Embiid were each thought of as the clear number 1 prospect at one time), but both have come arguably close (LBJ closer than Kobe of course). All I'm saying is that if Embiid can come even close to his full potential, then I wouldn't be shocked to see a Hakeem lite.

You said it yourself. The bolded, even though you qualified it, really undoes your argument.

Kobe and LeBron never reached Michael Jordan's level, even though they were billed as such.

Olajuwon is one of the absolute best players at his position in the history of the NBA, period.

Saying that Embiid could be that, to me, is well, unrealistic. We simply don't have enough information, and the information we do have is not pointing in that direction.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

You said it yourself. The bolded, even though you qualified it, really undoes your argument.

Kobe and LeBron never reached Michael Jordan's level, even though they were billed as such.

Olajuwon is one of the absolute best players at his position in the history of the NBA, period.

Saying that Embiid could be that, to me, is well, unrealistic. We simply don't have enough information, and the information we do have is not pointing in that direction.

1) You didn't address the health issue I pointed out.
2) Lebron can reach MJ level. He's still only 30 and it's fairly realistic that he could.
3) You're not getting that he doesn't HAVE to be Olajuwon and Kobe didn't HAVE to be Jordan. That's not the point of my argument and I think you're taking it too literally. The fact that he has that type of ceiling is supposed to show that if he can come anywhere close to that, he can still be the most dominant center we've seen since Shaq (and even if you tame the expectations a bit, I don't think best center in the league - in the argument with Cousins - is unrealistic at all even if he doesn't become Hakeem-like).

Of course, this is all with the tag, "if healthy," but I'm no doctor, so I'm not trying to make a guess on the chances of him coming back 100%. I'm just saying that I disagree that it's close to/at 0 percent chance of that happening.

 

[gourimoko]

1) You didn't address the health issue I pointed out.

Yeah, actually I did...

2) Lebron can reach MJ level. He's still only 30 and it's fairly realistic that he could.

This is highly unlikely, on multiple fronts, especially considering LeBron's best years appear to be behind him.

3) You're not getting that he doesn't HAVE to be Olajuwon and Kobe didn't HAVE to be Jordan. That's not the point of my argument and I think you're taking it too literally. The fact that he has that type of ceiling is supposed to show that if he can come anywhere close to that, he can still be the most dominant center we've seen since Shaq (and even if you tame the expectations a bit, I don't think best center in the league - in the argument with Cousins - is unrealistic at all even if he doesn't become Hakeem-like).

I have no doubt that it's possible, I just don't see it as being likely enough to discuss. I don't think it's realistic at this point.

Of course, this is all with the tag, "if healthy," but I'm no doctor, so I'm not trying to make a guess on the chances of him coming back 100%. I'm just saying that I disagree that it's close to/at 0 percent chance of that happening.

Again, it isn't that he won't have a healthy season, it's that I think he has chronic foot issues that will likely plague him for the rest of his career -- and that isn't my opinion, but the opinion of those that examined him.

But enough talk of Embiid... we have an Embiid thread for that very purpose.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Yeah, actually I did...



This is highly unlikely, on multiple fronts, especially considering LeBron's best years appear to be behind him.



I have no doubt that it's possible, I just don't see it as being likely enough to discuss. I don't think it's realistic at this point.



Again, it isn't that he won't have a healthy season, it's that I think he has chronic foot issues that will likely plague him for the rest of his career -- and that isn't my opinion, but the opinion of those that examined him.

But enough talk of Embiid... we have an Embiid thread for that very purpose.

Ok, but I just want to clarify that by saying "you didn't address the health issue," I meant you didn't respond to the quote I pulled from an earlier post of yours, where you said that a "healthy Embiid doesn't and never will exist," even though later you said you didn't say that. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just want that cleared up.