Browns @ Raiders: 4:25 P.M. December 2, 2012

[AZ_]

Oh, you can tell all of this from 12 rookie season games with: a rookie RB, rookie WR1, 2nd year HC, no consistent check-down TE (until this week), and a system that opposes one he played in while in college? Damn dude, you should be a scout.

Myself and numerous scouting reports have been saying this since before his rookie season.

But his poor short accuracy and inability to handle pressure don't always just develop with experience.

Especially considering this guy isn't your average second year QB.

 

[chrisrich91]

Myself and numerous scouting reports have been saying this since before his rookie season.

But his poor short accuracy and inability to handle pressure don't always just develop with experience.

Especially considering this guy isn't your average second year QB.

You're a borderline troll when it comes to Weeden. The kind of QB that can only lead a run heavy, defensive juggernaut is like a seasoned Colt McCoy, Trent Dilfer, Mark Sanchez a couple years back...

Weeden is an absolute gunslinger who has made tons of elite, game changing throws this season. Whether or not they were all caught is a different story, but Weeden is absolutely not a game manager QB. With more experience, he's the kind of guy who wins you games with his arm. Accuracy has not been an issue outside of very few instances, and that happens to every QB in the league. His other INT yesterday was a result of his arm getting hit while he was throwing. He will improve in the pocket (as he has already), and his decision making will continue to improve.

The guy can, and HAS after engineering yesterday's TD drive late, made game winning throws this season as a rookie. I expect to see more as he gets more experience, too.

 

[AZ_]

You're a borderline troll when it comes to Weeden. The kind of QB that can only lead a run heavy, defensive juggernaut is like a seasoned Colt McCoy, Trent Dilfer, Mark Sanchez a couple years back...

Weeden is an absolute gunslinger who has made tons of elite, game changing throws this season. Whether or not they were all caught is a different story, but Weeden is absolutely not a game manager QB. With more experience, he's the kind of guy who wins you games with his arm. Accuracy has not been an issue outside of very few instances, and that happens to every QB in the league. His other INT yesterday was a result of his arm getting hit while he was throwing. He will improve in the pocket (as he has already), and his decision making will continue to improve.

The guy can, and HAS after engineering yesterday's TD drive late, made game winning throws this season as a rookie. I expect to see more as he gets more experience, too.

He's been the worst of the four rookie starting QBs this season, and is below average in just about every statistical measure.

I enjoy a nice deep ball as much as anyone else, but he simply hasn't made 'tons' of game changing, elite throws. That's quite simply ridiculous.

 

[DanRosenberg]

He's been the worst of the four rookie starting QBs this season, and is below average in just about every statistical measure.

I enjoy a nice deep ball as much as anyone else, but he simply hasn't made 'tons' of game changing, elite throws. That's quite simply ridiculous.

There's 6 rookie starting QBs

Andrew Luck is the best QB prospect to come out in the last decade. Not a fair comparison.

Shanahan has done a tremendous job of putting RG3 into a system where he is an absolute perfect fit. Plus, he has better weapons around him and a better coaching staff. His pass attempts have been limited because they are utilizing the option to allow their receiving core to get open and let RG3 gradually develop. I am not saying Weeden is better than RG3 right now, because he's not, but realize RG3 is thriving because hes in a system tailored around him. This is the reason I want Kyle Shanahan as our next head coach.

I would take Weeden over Tannehill, hands down. They have the exact same QBR and Tannehill was picked 8th, not 22nd. Plus, Browns rank 13th in pass attempts per game while Miami ranks 26th. Weeden has 13 TD to 15 INT, which is better than Tannehill's 7 TD to 12 INT. Given that Miami has a better coaching staff and a actual veteran leadership in the offensive skill players, Tannehill would be expected to have better stats than Weeden... Which he doesn't.

Russel Wilson has the benefit of playing from ahead. He may be better than Weeden, but he also has a WAY better coach, elite defense, and, again, veteran leadership at offensive skill positions.

Nick Foles doesn't hold a candle to Weeden.

Cleveland has a questionable head coach who tells Weeden to do one thing; they have an OC who tells Weeden to do something different. Ever see Weeden make reads at the line of scrimmage and call audibles? No. Is it because he's inept? No. Shurmer won't let Weeden change the play at the line of scrimmage. Forget Cribbs... Weeden is caged. We have had a new starting quarterback every year since 99, all of which have not panned out. Is it more likely we missed on over 10 prospects, or more likely that our quarterback development/system isn't effective? Aside Anderson in his pro-bowl season, Weeden looks better than every other quarterback we've had. Weeden is still in the system that led our other quarterbacks to fail. He is a rookie surrounded by rookies. What do you honestly expect?

 

[AZ_]

There's 6 rookie starting QBs

Andrew Luck is the best QB prospect to come out in the last decade. Not a fair comparison.

Shanahan has done a tremendous job of putting RG3 into a system where he is an absolute perfect fit. Plus, he has better weapons around him and a better coaching staff. His pass attempts have been limited because they are utilizing the option to allow their receiving core to get open and let RG3 gradually develop. I am not saying Weeden is better than RG3 right now, because he's not, but realize RG3 is thriving because hes in a system tailored around him. This is the reason I want Kyle Shanahan as our next head coach.

I would take Weeden over Tannehill, hands down. They have the exact same QBR and Tannehill was picked 8th, not 22nd. Plus, Browns rank 13th in pass attempts per game while Miami ranks 26th. Weeden has 13 TD to 15 INT, which is better than Tannehill's 7 TD to 12 INT. Given that Miami has a better coaching staff and a actual veteran leadership in the offensive skill players, Tannehill would be expected to have better stats than Weeden... Which he doesn't.

Russel Wilson has the benefit of playing from ahead. He may be better than Weeden, but he also has a WAY better coach, elite defense, and, again, veteran leadership at offensive skill positions.

Nick Foles doesn't hold a candle to Weeden.

Cleveland has a questionable head coach who tells Weeden to do one thing; they have an OC who tells Weeden to do something different. Ever see Weeden make reads at the line of scrimmage and call audibles? No. Is it because he's inept? No. Shurmer won't let Weeden change the play at the line of scrimmage. Forget Cribbs... Weeden is caged. We have had a new starting quarterback every year since 99, all of which have not panned out. Is it more likely we missed on over 10 prospects, or more likely that our quarterback development/system isn't effective? Aside Anderson in his pro-bowl season, Weeden looks better than every other quarterback we've had. Weeden is still in the system that led our other quarterbacks to fail. He is a rookie surrounded by rookies. What do you honestly expect?

Luck and Griffin are certainly in a different stratosphere than Weeden. And the Browns skill position players are probably better than those in Washington. Shanahan is an OK coach, but Griffin allows them to do so much advanced stuff because he's a freak...and probably a better all around player than Andrew Luck at this stage.

I'd put Weeden and Tanny on the same page in terms of being underwhelming. Sometimes they get it done, but not consistently enough to be effective in this league. Tanny has the advantage of having just 16 or so starts at the college level under his belt, so I'd argue that "experience" is something more likely to come to Tannehill than it is Weeden.

Wilson is just flat out better. Veteran leadership at the skill positions? His wide receivers are terrible, Golden Tate is the closest thing to a weapon.


No need to oversell these other teams skill position players, the Browns have two good young receivers and a stable of good TEs, a stud at running back who can catch passes and an incredibly good offensive line which specialized in pass pro.

He's not held back by his cast.

 

[DanRosenberg]

Luck and Griffin are certainly in a different stratosphere than Weeden. And the Browns skill position players are probably better than those in Washington. Shanahan is an OK coach, but Griffin allows them to do so much advanced stuff because he's a freak...and probably a better all around player than Andrew Luck at this stage.

I'd put Weeden and Tanny on the same page in terms of being underwhelming. Sometimes they get it done, but not consistently enough to be effective in this league. Tanny has the advantage of having just 16 or so starts at the college level under his belt, so I'd argue that "experience" is something more likely to come to Tannehill than it is Weeden.

Wilson is just flat out better. Veteran leadership at the skill positions? His wide receivers are terrible, Golden Tate is the closest thing to a weapon.


No need to oversell these other teams skill position players, the Browns have two good young receivers and a stable of good TEs, a stud at running back who can catch passes and an incredibly good offensive line which specialized in pass pro.

He's not held back by his cast.

Pierre Garcon is better than any receiver we have. He played with Peyton Manning in a Super Bowl. That experience cannot be overstated.

Wilson has Beast Mode. As of now, he's better than Richardson.

I believe you're overselling the Browns skill players. I love them, but I would not say that we have two good receivers, nor good TEs. Little has been underwhelming. MoMass can't run routes. Watson is starting to come into his own, but I need more than one decent game to call a player "good". We have average players with high ceilings that are developing in a system that isn't great at developing talent.

I would not call Weeden nor Tannehill "underwhelming". We've all been on this site bitching about how Shurmer doesn't use Richardson enough, which means the success of the offense has layed on Weeden heavily. Weeden is being asked to throw the ball more than many veteran quarterbacks. He's a rookie. Football isn't basketball: the game isn't the same on the college level and the pro level. It takes a few years to adjust. Look at Peyton Manning's rookie stats. They're worse than Weeden's now.

I am skeptical of Wilson's continued success. As an OSU student, I've watched him play at Wisconsin for a couple of years. He's good, but he's also a product of his system and his team. Right now, yeah he's more effective than Weeden, but that doesn't equal prolonged success. Remember when the Dolphins came out with the Wildcat and everyone thought it was going to be the future of the NFL? When is the last time you saw the wildcat run effectively? Long time ago. Why? Defenses adjust. The option has played a huge role in Wilson's success: He's able to get out of the pocket and away from lineman that are 6 inches taller than him. There will be adjustments to stop the option, and he will have to adjust to being a pocket passer. Think about Cam and the Panthers. They were predicted to go to the playoffs. Why didn't they? Defenses adjusted to Cam. Take away the run, Cam is average. Who's the last non-pocket passer to win a Super Bowl? I'll take the proven model of a tall, strong-armed field general.

Remember, these players are still kids (well, maybe not Weeden). They need veteran leadership. If you've played the game, you'd know.

 

[Nw220]

Luck and Griffin are certainly in a different stratosphere than Weeden. And the Browns skill position players are probably better than those in Washington. Shanahan is an OK coach, but Griffin allows them to do so much advanced stuff because he's a freak...and probably a better all around player than Andrew Luck at this stage.

I'd put Weeden and Tanny on the same page in terms of being underwhelming. Sometimes they get it done, but not consistently enough to be effective in this league. Tanny has the advantage of having just 16 or so starts at the college level under his belt, so I'd argue that "experience" is something more likely to come to Tannehill than it is Weeden.

Wilson is just flat out better. Veteran leadership at the skill positions? His wide receivers are terrible, Golden Tate is the closest thing to a weapon.


No need to oversell these other teams skill position players, the Browns have two good young receivers and a stable of good TEs, a stud at running back who can catch passes and an incredibly good offensive line which specialized in pass pro.

He's not held back by his cast.

I dono about experience considering Tannehill was former WR in College who just turned QB in his Junior Season,btw i live in SWFL and Tannehill right now >Weedman

 

[AZ_]

Pierre Garcon is better than any receiver we have. He played with Peyton Manning in a Super Bowl. That experience cannot be overstated.

Wilson has Beast Mode. As of now, he's better than Richardson.

I believe you're overselling the Browns skill players. I love them, but I would not say that we have two good receivers, nor good TEs. Little has been underwhelming. MoMass can't run routes. Watson is starting to come into his own, but I need more than one decent game to call a player "good". We have average players with high ceilings that are developing in a system that isn't great at developing talent.

I would not call Weeden nor Tannehill "underwhelming". We've all been on this site bitching about how Shurmer doesn't use Richardson enough, which means the success of the offense has layed on Weeden heavily. Weeden is being asked to throw the ball more than many veteran quarterbacks. He's a rookie. Football isn't basketball: the game isn't the same on the college level and the pro level. It takes a few years to adjust. Look at Peyton Manning's rookie stats. They're worse than Weeden's now.

I am skeptical of Wilson's continued success. As an OSU student, I've watched him play at Wisconsin for a couple of years. He's good, but he's also a product of his system and his team. Right now, yeah he's more effective than Weeden, but that doesn't equal prolonged success. Remember when the Dolphins came out with the Wildcat and everyone thought it was going to be the future of the NFL? When is the last time you saw the wildcat run effectively? Long time ago. Why? Defenses adjust. The option has played a huge role in Wilson's success: He's able to get out of the pocket and away from lineman that are 6 inches taller than him. There will be adjustments to stop the option, and he will have to adjust to being a pocket passer. Think about Cam and the Panthers. They were predicted to go to the playoffs. Why didn't they? Defenses adjusted to Cam. Take away the run, Cam is average. Who's the last non-pocket passer to win a Super Bowl? I'll take the proven model of a tall, strong-armed field general.

Remember, these players are still kids (well, maybe not Weeden). They need veteran leadership. If you've played the game, you'd know.

I can look at anybody's rookie stats and pick on some better and worse than Weeden's. Manning's maybe worse, but anyone with half a brain could see the potential to be great was above and beyond what Weeden could ever do.

I'm not talking about one player from each team who may be better or worse than the Browns best receiver or running back. The overall talent level at the skill positions is better than that of Washington or Seattle IMO...And if it isn't it's damn close. Yes I would say Lynch is better than TRich and Garcon maybe a slightly above average WR although I'd still probably take Gordon...but there certainly isn't a drastic drop off to Cleveland's group anymore...This isn't three years ago.

One thing to keep in mind in your anti-Russell Wilson paragraph is that Cam Newton got worse as the league adjusted to him as opposed to Wilson who is starting to see the field much better and making better decisions as he matures.


Just not sure where you're seeing this elite potential from Weeden while slamming these other guys as "products of the system" or "having superior supporting casts."


Weeden has been remarkably average, probably below average. He's got a great deep ball though, so I can see where people are getting excited about him given what they've seen from the Browns in the past.


It's not as simple as people think to just suddenly be able to read defenses, make good decisions under pressure and stop turning the ball over. It doesn't always come with experience.

 

[The Voice]

I can look at anybody's rookie stats and pick on some better and worse than Weeden's. Manning's maybe worse, but anyone with half a brain could see the potential to be great was above and beyond what Weeden could ever do.

I'm not talking about one player from each team who may be better or worse than the Browns best receiver or running back. The overall talent level at the skill positions is better than that of Washington or Seattle IMO...And if it isn't it's damn close. Yes I would say Lynch is better than TRich and Garcon maybe a slightly above average WR although I'd still probably take Gordon...but there certainly isn't a drastic drop off to Cleveland's group anymore...This isn't three years ago.

One thing to keep in mind in your anti-Russell Wilson paragraph is that Cam Newton got worse as the league adjusted to him as opposed to Wilson who is starting to see the field much better and making better decisions as he matures.


Just not sure where you're seeing this elite potential from Weeden while slamming these other guys as "products of the system" or "having superior supporting casts."


Weeden has been remarkably average, probably below average. He's got a great deep ball though, so I can see where people are getting excited about him given what they've seen from the Browns in the past.


It's not as simple as people think to just suddenly be able to read defenses, make good decisions under pressure and stop turning the ball over. It doesn't always come with experience.

It just baffles my mind how you can talk about the Redskins players and totally ignore they have Santana Moss. I'd also take their backup WR's over ours any day of the week.

Cooley ~ Watson

The Seahawks:
They have your boy, Braylon Edwards, which if I recall was the best WR ever in your opinion when the Browns had him.

I'd take our TE's over theirs any day of the week.

Gordon is better then their number 1, but the others I'd take over our 2 and 3. If you're listing Tate as their one or Rice. I'd still take either or over Little.

Beastmode > Richardson right now.

I'd say Seattle is a wash talent wise with the Browns.

 

[AZ_]

It just baffles my mind how you can talk about the Redskins players and totally ignore they have Santana Moss. I'd also take their backup WR's over ours any day of the week.

Cooley ~ Watson

The Seahawks:
They have your boy, Braylon Edwards, which if I recall was the best WR ever in your opinion when the Browns had him.

I'd take our TE's over theirs any day of the week.

Gordon is better then their number 1, but the others I'd take over our 2 and 3. If you're listing Tate as their one or Rice. I'd still take either or over Little.

Beastmode > Richardson right now.

I'd say Seattle is a wash talent wise with the Browns.

Nice to know you haven't watched the Redskins....in two or three years.

Chris Cooley? Santana Moss? Come on man...

Cooley was a street free agent who was signed after Davis went down, he's got roughly ZERO catches this year, or last year for that matter.

Moss has been targeted less than five times in all but one game. He's basically their slot receiver.

 

[The Voice]

Nice to know you haven't watched the Redskins....in two or three years.

Chris Cooley? Santana Moss? Come on man...

Cooley was a street free agent who was signed after Davis went down, he's got roughly ZERO catches this year, or last year for that matter.

Moss has been targeted less than five times in all but one game. He's basically their slot receiver.

I know you're right about Cooley, but Moss has more TD's and yards then Little. Thanks for playing.

Even if I give the upper hand to our TE's, I refuse to give it to our WR's.

 

[AZ_]

Moss has more TD's and yards then Little. Thanks for playing.

OK?

Is that supposed to be impressive, or something.

Maybe you could have just admitted you haven't paid attention to them in the last few years....instead of comparing him to the Browns third option?

Remind me again how much better Chris Cooley is than Watson...

 

[The Voice]

OK?

Is that supposed to be impressive, or something.

Maybe you could have just admitted you haven't paid attention to them in the last few years....instead of comparing him to the Browns third option?

Remind me again how much better Chris Cooley is than Watson...

Little is the Browns second WR, maybe if you watched the Browns.

Remind me again how good Braylon Edwards is.

 

[AZ_]

As I was saying, the Browns clearly are similar at the very worst in comparison to Washington in terms of skill position players.

Fully taking into account Chris Cooley and their slot receiver.

 

[The Voice]

As I was saying, the Browns clearly are similar at the very worst in comparison to Washington in terms of skill position players.

Fully taking into account Chris Cooley and their slot receiver.

Their full back is better then Alex Smith and all their backups are better then Owen Marecic.

Their HC > our HC