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Cavaliers Offseason Thread

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I think many of us are hoping that Shumpert figures it out and has a Whiteside-esque epiphany turning into an All-Star at some point in his near-future.

It's possible.

He has the athletic skill, although he could work on that, he has a good shooting stroke, and good fundamentals. He's got decent ball-handling skills, and above average defense.

Shump is a baller, but he's also a project that needs a great deal of development to really pan out.

That's one of the reasons I want to keep him; but he is a project, and Wade is a known commodity.

One could make the argument that Shump will drastically improve over the next 2-3 seasons and be a starting caliber wing in that time (maybe more); but one could also make the argument that Wade, on limited minutes and as the 4th option on offense and having little defensive responsibilities, could significantly increase his window of being a top-tier shooting guard.

That's why, from my perspective, Wade makes the most sense out of any option on the table. He can do things that Shump simply can't do, and won't be able to do, and we only really need him in the playoffs. Our Big 3 will get us to the Finals regardless of whether or not Shump or Wade is on the team. Once there, we need our supporting cast to pick up any slack or step up if players are injured.

I'd have a lot more confidence going into a game with James and Wade than I would with James and Shump or JR Smith; for obvious reasons.

I think you're really underrating Shump here.

His defense is much greater than "above average" as his ability to strip the ball on guys driving at him is remarkable.

On offense he's not the guy that goes out and get you 20 points like Wade could, but on a team with a big 3 already in place he does the complimentary things you need like shooting threes and driving when the defense is scrambling.

Regardless, I don't think Miami would even want him in exchange for Wade because he would clog up their cap and limit their ability to get a big fish in 2016.
 
I think you're really underrating Shump here.

I am? I thought I was pretty complimentary actually.

His defense is much greater than "above average" as his ability to strip the ball on guys driving at him is remarkable.

How much "greater than above average" is it? This seems like a weird point to make. I'm saying he's an above average defender. I'd put him in the top 10 for shooting guards, and top 15 for all wings (which I think is more relevant); which is fair, and somewhat inline with his defensive stats (that I don't put much stock into, but some do).

On offense he's not the guy that goes out and get you 20 points like Wade could, but on a team with a big 3 already in place he does the complimentary things you need like shooting threes and driving when the defense is scrambling.

That he does, but nowhere am I taking that away from him. I am saying that net/net, Wade gives more to a team than Shumpert, and likely will continue to do so in a 4th-option/6-th man role for the next 2-3 years.

Regardless, I don't think Miami would even want him in exchange for Wade because he would clog up their cap and limit their ability to get a big fish in 2016.

I agree.
 
Pat Riley refused to trade us Norris Cole, what makes you think he'll relent and trade us Wade?
 
Pat Riley refused to trade us Norris Cole, what makes you think he'll relent and trade us Wade?

Because if Cole says "I want to go to the Cavs," nobody gives two shits or even reports it; but if Wade follows some random guy on Instagram, the Earth's rotation shifts slightly towards Lake Erie.

That's why.
 
He wont, Wade is a pipe dream

Yeah, I obviously completely disagree. And here's why...

What is Riley's reason for not trading Wade?

A grudge? With who? Wade?! No? Then LeBron?? Lol... that'd go over well.

If confronted with the option of trading Wade to Cleveland for assets and picks, or watching him walk to Los Angeles for nothing; what is Riley's rationale to Mickey Arison (who is the guy making these decisions - not Pat Riley)?

"I don't want to trade Wade because fuck him and fuck LeBron?" That's in the best interest of the franchise, fans, the city, or the ownership?

No.... it's not.
 
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Yeah, I obviously completely disagree. And here's why...

What is Riley's reason for not trading Wade?

A grudge? With who? Wade?! No? Then LeBron?? Lol... that'd go over well.

If confronted with the option of trading Wade to Cleveland for assets and picks, or watching him walk to Los Angeles for nothing; what is Riley's rationale to Mickey Arison (who is the guy making these decisions - not Pat Riley)?

"I don't want to trade Wade because fuck him and fuck LeBron?" That's in the best interest of the franchise, fans, the city, or the ownership?

No.... it's not.

I think you're looking at it too logically. The narrative you're spinning is what he should do, but doesn't seem like something he will do. If Lloyd is even half right on the extent that he went to in order to keep Cole out of Cleveland, we're fucked if banking on a trade. He dealt Cole for a bag of basketballs at the deadline.
 
I think you're looking at it too logically. The narrative you're spinning is what he should do, but doesn't seem like something he will do. If Lloyd is even half right on the extent that he went to in order to keep Cole out of Cleveland, we're fucked if banking on a trade. He dealt Cole for a bag of basketballs at the deadline.

Couple of things:

1) Lloyd makes the mistake of conflating Cole with Wade. Trades involving these guys are not remotely the same thing. Riley could trade 10 of Norris Cole and might not even send a text to Arison. But trading Dwyane Wade is a decision made by the owner; not the GM.

2) Arison has not done anything to indicate he holds a grudge against James, let alone Dwyane Wade. Riley's problem with James extends to Wade which has soured their working relationship.

3) Riley might get fired (or retire) in 2016 if he can't land a big time free agent. Those are his words.

4) Alienating a guy like Wade, and making a huge public demonstration of control, even sacrificing potential assets to say fuck you to an outgoing superstar and 3x champion is not a good look to Dragic, Durant or even Bosh let alone any other star they might hope to sign.

5) Arison has one motivation, and it isn't championships. It's money. The Heat franchise is a business to him, and he's made that abundantly clear. Personal grudges and chest-thumping likely mean little, and if faced with a rational choice where Arison can get assets for Wade or reject them, I doubt he decides not to take what's on the table. If he's smart, he'll pat Wade on the back on his way out, rather than alienate him further.

6) Most importantly, Arison and Riley likely want Wade gone to begin with. This isn't a situation where a superstar simply wants out. It's Wade who wants to stay with the Heat, but the Heat are low-balling him thereby showing him the door. It's a polite way for all parties to save face yet go their own way. Nothing about this seems like the franchise is desperate to keep him; in fact, the opposite seems glaringly obvious.

Point being; the Cole situation was completely different, and really fell under Riley's purview as president of the franchise. The Wade decision wouldn't. Lastly, people are acting like Wade is forcing a trade; he's not. He's asking to get paid, and the Heat FO is so far refusing citing their interest in other players (Durant). That's not how you retain your franchise player; and they know it.

If the Heat decide to pay Wade, it'll be because they felt the pressure was too great, or they had too narrow of a possibility at getting a better player in 2016.

All in all though, it's important to remember that we traded LeBron James to the Miami Heat literally hours after Gilbert wrote 'The Letter.' I can't think of any owner holding a grudge more seriously and publicly than Dan Gilbert.
 
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And then you must take into account ego considerations and personality chemistry,

Oh, I'm sure Kevin Love would be thrilled if Wade came here. The more guys to take shots, the better!

Actually, I suppose it's possible that part of Love's thought process is wanting to ensure the Cavs don't add someone who could further diminish his offensive touches.

We could argue all day here about what Wade's role would/should be, and whether it would/should matter to Love. But the fact is that what we think doesn't matter. What matters is what Love would think about that, and that's something about which we can only guess.
 
Oh, I'm sure Kevin Love would be thrilled if Wade came here. The more guys to take shots, the better!

Actually, I suppose it's possible that part of Love's thought process is wanting to ensure the Cavs don't add someone who could further diminish his offensive touches.

We could argue all day here about what Wade's role would/should be, and whether it would/should matter to Love. But the fact is that what we think doesn't matter. What matters is what Love would think about that, and that's something about which we can only guess.

Wade doesn't take shots from Love, nor would Gay, DeRozen, or any of the other potential mid-tier names potentially on the list.

They would take away from the 36+ FGA/game between Delly, Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov, Jones, and Tristan.

If anything, Love should be happy that another facilitator who is used to operating with a similarly skilled big-man (Bosh) is on the floor. Wade is very good at the 1-4 PnR/hand-off, and Bosh excelled playing alongside him.
 
Lol, when did Shumpert get better than Wade? If the deal is you can get Wade for 2-3 years as a 3rd/4th option but it means giving up Shump, Haywood, and filler you make that trade 10/10. Wade is still an elite mid-range scorer.

Is he super "clutch" in the playoffs? Not by the numbers. Yet, there is actually a significant reason why those numbers look like they do from his last two finals. San Antonio was able to put Lebron in single-coverage by having an elite defender guard him and stick two very, very strong post defenders in the middle. It is part of the reason why everyone always says LBJ needs 3pt shooters. That Heat team, especially the final one, couldn't manage between spacing the floor and actually defending. Cavs are much deeper in that regard. A lineup of Kyrie, Love, LBJ, Wade, and TT has not one player who you can sag off, yet, still are well above average defensively. TT is the only guy you can give space to and he won't necessarily score, but, he will get the rebound.

A perimeter of Kyrie, Wade, and LBJ -- even with old LBJ and old Wade -- would be one of the greatest in NBA history. If that offer is on the table you take it and run like The Flash.
 
Couple of things:

1) Lloyd makes the mistake of conflating Cole with Wade. Trades involving these guys are not remotely the same thing. Riley could trade 10 of Norris Cole and might not even send a text to Arison. But trading Dwyane Wade is a decision made by the owner; not the GM.

Old school props for correct usage of 'conflate.'
 
Lol, when did Shumpert get better than Wade? If the deal is you can get Wade for 2-3 years as a 3rd/4th option but it means giving up Shump, Haywood, and filler you make that trade 10/10. Wade is still an elite mid-range scorer.

Is he super "clutch" in the playoffs? Not by the numbers. Yet, there is actually a significant reason why those numbers look like they do from his last two finals. San Antonio was able to put Lebron in single-coverage by having an elite defender guard him and stick two very, very strong post defenders in the middle. It is part of the reason why everyone always says LBJ needs 3pt shooters. That Heat team, especially the final one, couldn't manage between spacing the floor and actually defending. Cavs are much deeper in that regard. A lineup of Kyrie, Love, LBJ, Wade, and TT has not one player who you can sag off, yet, still are well above average defensively. TT is the only guy you can give space to and he won't necessarily score, but, he will get the rebound.

A perimeter of Kyrie, Wade, and LBJ -- even with old LBJ and old Wade -- would be one of the greatest in NBA history. If that offer is on the table you take it and run like The Flash.
I agree with this, especially if we are talking about paying Shumpert 10 mil a season. I don't really see how that salary is justified. Maybe I'm just not acclimating my brain to the new salary cap that's coming soon but 10 mil a year seems a lot for a guy who really struggles with shooting and even layups and dunks.
 
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