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Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Continuity for Continuity sake is the only reason to keep Pat Shurmur, and even then it's not a good one. Do people really believe that with a team of good players, Pat Shurmur would be anything more than Norv Turner in the NFL? I don't.

We losing nothing when Shurmur leaves. He can take the WCO and go fuck himself. Then hopefully we bring a tough running, play action style offense to the team.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Two names that I'm surprised haven't really been mentioned yet are Jauron and Childress. I'd say that Childress is more of a longshot, but both of these guys have head coaching experience and are already part of the team. Childress has a career record of 39-35 which is better than Jauron's 60-82, but the defense is going to outperform the offense this year especially once Haden comes back which is why I think Jauron has the leg up.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Get the fuck out of here with this bullshit.

I'm so fucking sick of changing coaching staff's every 2 god damn years. Leave Shurmer, and let him find his niche. You can't build a team when you keep changing shit, it's just stupid as fuck. We've started something here, and there has been no where near enough time for it to develop into something.

You are all the typical CLEVELAND BROWNS fans that have completely ruined this franchise since 99, because you can't just be patient. GIVE IT SOME GOD DAMN TIME YOU FUCKERS.

All sports fans do the same shit and they're more than obligated to do so. If the fans see a shit product on the field, they're going to complain about anyone and everything that isn't showing clear and immediate signs of improvement. Go to any site or any stadium where the fans care about the team and it's the exact same thing. So enough with the "ony in cleveland" or "typical Browns fans" shit. You're talking about consumers.

I actually see a pretty fair amount of intelligent Browns fans around here who are able to pick apart aspects of a loss that were positive and that were negative as well. I saw positives about Colt when he QB'd and I've seen them about Weeden too. Same goes for just about every player. I see complaints about improper blocking schemes, overly conservative play-calling, flat starts and identification of specific positive or negative performances on the offensive and defensive lines.

The fans here have more than enough credibility to call out a shitty product when they see one. The fans, after 13 years of garbage, are more than due the right to complain. And as far as I'm concerned, they can complain or be as impatient as they want if there's clear flaws in the players drafted or in the coach chosen and those flaws aren't improved or otherwise worked around. I see a new coach who has no proven ability to run an offense...running an offense. Even when there's a proven coordinator up in the booth. I see a WR chosen in the second round two years ago dropping a lot of passes again and celebrating like an asshole when he finally makes a 5 yard catch. The list goes on....

You don't see a great deal of bitching about the cavs do you? Why not? It's the exact same fan base. If it's only in Cleveland that this happens, shouldn't all that venom be enough to carry over to the other team that's sucked for two years? Why is there an entirely different tone on here for some reason? You know why? Because the fans trust the owner and the front office and in large part carries over to the coach. Are they right to trust Gilbert, Grant and Scott? We'll know im another two years. But the fans are smart enough to understand that winning is not as important right now as the coach maintaing control of the team and maximizing the players abilities, the front office hitting on their first rounders, making creative trades to improve the team, making smart FA signings.

It's early in the process for them, so all of this remains to be seen. But the Cavs fan response Proves Cleveland fans get it and can be patient if they trust the guys at the top and the coach. If they don't... All hell breaks loose and it happens quickly.

Haslam has done nothing to either earn or lose trust at this point. Where he'll be judged is whether and when he clears out the Fo and who he chooses to replace it. They'll be ealuated based on the coach they choose an the players they pick for the coach to use. The coach will be evaluated based on the success or failures on the field. That's how it works. You know you have good fans when they can identify positives and negatives in the front office and on the field. The measure of a good fan is their level of understanding of the game and their willingness to attend. If a fan understands the game well enough to say they don't identify with the product and the people responsible for it...good for them!!! If they're willing to watch some losing while identifying good and bad, even better. But you put enough losers in the front office and on the field...the length of time fans will be patient with missed draft picks, bad coaching hires and repeated mistakes on the football field shortens exponentially.

New owner is a good thing. Holmgren is a credible football guy and I think Heckert is a good one too and their talent evaluation has been very good IMO. I don't trust the coach to maximize the players ability because he came with no previous success and he's showed no flashes of creative, winning football out there. I'm willing to give H&H years because I trust tem i'm willing to give Shurmur one more year. Losing is ok if there's clear improvement. I there's no clear improvement...then the fans distrust will likely have been proven right. The issue here is that with new ownership, all three will likely be gone. I think the fans are losing a gem in Heckert if that's the case.

Sidenote: which FO members, head coaches and players that Browns fans impatiently complained about went on to have success in other organizations?
 
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Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Oh man, we think the end is in sight? Doubtful.

If Haslam doesn't do exactly as the fans want him to and/or if the person he does hire to coach the team doesn't go at least .500 in his first year, fans are going to be calling to blow it up and get a new owner. Hell, they'll probably do that if we lose the opener. It won't be until the 40+ year old fans die of a heart attack and Michael Stanley loses his voice before the fans learn that shit doesn't just magically work right immediately.

What irks me the most is that fans boo these young players because we've stunk since '99. Not only does that not help them gain confidence, it makes other players want to avoid the city. We expect these guys to be robots out there and keep giving us plays while we relentlessly boo them. They're human too.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Oh man, we think the end is in sight? Doubtful.

If Haslam doesn't do exactly as the fans want him to and/or if the person he does hire to coach the team doesn't go at least .500 in his first year, fans are going to be calling to blow it up and get a new owner. Hell, they'll probably do that if we lose the opener. It won't be until the 40+ year old fans die of a heart attack and Michael Stanley loses his voice before the fans learn that shit doesn't just magically work right immediately.

What irks me the most is that fans boo these young players because we've stunk since '99. Not only does that not help them gain confidence, it makes other players want to avoid the city. We expect these guys to be robots out there and keep giving us plays while we relentlessly boo them. They're human too.

But the Cavs fans seem to get that it doesn't happen overnight, don't they? Why do you think that is? Same group of people.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

But the Cavs fans seem to get that it doesn't happen overnight, don't they? Why do you think that is? Same group of people.

I get it both ways, so I can't relate to it. My guess would be that the common enemy in the Cavs' situation bands the fans with the team/owner.

Still, you can't sit there and tell me that the conduct of Browns fans toward this franchise is rational at all. Should we be upset, definitely. Should we take it out on the new guys in the City like they're our own red-headed stepchildren? Fuck no and I think it is pathetic that we do.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

I get it both ways, so I can't relate to it. My guess would be that the common enemy in the Cavs' situation bands the fans with the team/owner.

Still, you can't sit there and tell me that the conduct of Browns fans toward this franchise is rational at all. Should we be upset, definitely. Should we take it out on the new guys in the City like they're our own red-headed stepchildren? Fuck no and I think it is pathetic that we do.

On the other hand, fans could have flipped out and blamed Gilbert for everything that happened (maybe they should have?) with LeBron but they didn't. Instead, they related with Gilbert who was wise enough to use something as simple as twitter rant to relate to the fans and make them feel like he was on their side. But he built their trust beforehand by staying visible and spending lots and lots and lots of money. And what fans like is that neither of those things have stopped. He seems to be genuinely interested in improving Cleveland while making money off of it...and people respect it. Staying visible and accessivle is key during a rebuild. It's like when you're pissed off that your flight got cancelled. Who do you fly again? The airline that never lets you get in touch with a customer service agent and tells you to go fuck yourself when you ask for a refund and tells you to buy flight insurance next time? Or the one that calls you when it's cancelled, explains what happened and tells you what it will do so that it won't happen again...and then sends you a copy of the email it sent to the guys who screwed up? I fly the second airline. Maybe it's not as professional and tight, but it's relatable and it's fun. That's what it's about for owners nowadays. If Haslam has it, Browns fans will eat out of the palms of his hands. If he doesn't have it, but he makes good hires...Browns fans will eat out of the palms of the front office's hands. If he's inaccessible AND he makes bad hires....here we go again.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

No to Childress and Jauron
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

On the other hand, fans could have flipped out and blamed Gilbert for everything that happened (maybe they should have?) with LeBron but they didn't. Instead, they related with Gilbert who was wise enough to use something as simple as twitter rant to relate to the fans and make them feel like he was on their side. But he built their trust beforehand by staying visible and spending lots and lots and lots of money. And what fans like is that neither of those things have stopped. He seems to be genuinely interested in improving Cleveland while making money off of it...and people respect it. Staying visible and accessivle is key during a rebuild. It's like when you're pissed off that your flight got cancelled. Who do you fly again? The airline that never lets you get in touch with a customer service agent and tells you to go fuck yourself when you ask for a refund and tells you to buy flight insurance next time? Or the one that calls you when it's cancelled, explains what happened and tells you what it will do so that it won't happen again...and then sends you a copy of the email it sent to the guys who screwed up? I fly the second airline. Maybe it's not as professional and tight, but it's relatable and it's fun. That's what it's about for owners nowadays. If Haslam has it, Browns fans will eat out of the palms of his hands. If he doesn't have it, but he makes good hires...Browns fans will eat out of the palms of the front office's hands. If he's inaccessible AND he makes bad hires....here we go again.

I think your assessment about the Cavs is dead-on, actually. For example, an extremely personable Chris Grant is on the RBS right now. I get that.

What I'm not okay with is the aggression of Browns fans landing upon the shoulders of those who are trying to help. It is counter-productive, doesn't matter who the owner/ coach/ GM is. That is all I'm saying. So far, Haslam has been very visible and I don't see that changing. I'm just tired of hearing the Browns fans take everything out on the players who just want to compete and play well FOR YOU.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

I think your assessment about the Cavs is dead-on, actually. For example, an extremely personable Chris Grant is on the RBS right now. I get that.

What I'm not okay with is the aggression of Browns fans landing upon the shoulders of those who are trying to help. It is counter-productive, doesn't matter who the owner/ coach/ GM is. That is all I'm saying. So far, Haslam has been very visible and I don't see that changing. I'm just tired of hearing the Browns fans take everything out on the players who just want to compete and play well FOR YOU.

Just remember that guys who are paid millions of dollars to play a game are being cheered on (especially in the mid-west) by blue-collar guys with limited funds to spend. There's always going to be a tenuous relationship between fans and players given the amount of money players make and the fact that some of them don't appear to be putting out the effort that the blue-collar guys perceive themselves to be putting out on a day to day basis. There's a big class divide between fans and players, even if the players don't get it. Fans are very sensitive to perceived laziness and lack of care.

Browns fans are generally going to flock to guys that appear to work hard and put in full effort and that concept is really nation-wide. Any time the fans perceive a guy to be a diva or not putting in full effort...they're going to turn on them quickly, possibly moreso than in other cities. I don't think a guy like Little knows exactly how detested that kind of stuff is in a city like Cleveland. He'll figure it out soon.

If there's ever a question of effort or ego, guys are going to crash and burn in the eyes of fans very quickly.
 
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Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

On the other hand, fans could have flipped out and blamed Gilbert for everything that happened (maybe they should have?) with LeBron but they didn't. Instead, they related with Gilbert who was wise enough to use something as simple as twitter rant to relate to the fans and make them feel like he was on their side. But he built their trust beforehand by staying visible and spending lots and lots and lots of money. And what fans like is that neither of those things have stopped. He seems to be genuinely interested in improving Cleveland while making money off of it...and people respect it. Staying visible and accessivle is key during a rebuild. It's like when you're pissed off that your flight got cancelled. Who do you fly again? The airline that never lets you get in touch with a customer service agent and tells you to go fuck yourself when you ask for a refund and tells you to buy flight insurance next time? Or the one that calls you when it's cancelled, explains what happened and tells you what it will do so that it won't happen again...and then sends you a copy of the email it sent to the guys who screwed up? I fly the second airline. Maybe it's not as professional and tight, but it's relatable and it's fun. That's what it's about for owners nowadays. If Haslam has it, Browns fans will eat out of the palms of his hands. If he doesn't have it, but he makes good hires...Browns fans will eat out of the palms of the front office's hands. If he's inaccessible AND he makes bad hires....here we go again.

What Gilbert did was extremely shrewd & smart. He took bits & pieces of the behavioral theory and applied them to gain fan support. That email set of a conditioned response - or a result that all Clevelanders "knew was going to happen" before it even happened. Based on past experiences, we knew LeBron was leaving. We knew that, because he was going to leave, every single outlet was going to come down on Cleveland. And hard. The Fumble, The Drive, The Shot - served on a constant loop. Gilbert tapped into our insecurities, our self loathing, and made himself into the darling of the city - with LeBron, ESPN, the world as the villains.

While he's an opportunist by nature, he also knows when to pick & choose his positions & spots. As you said (and this reminds me of Gladiator): show loyalty to the city, have our backs, & Cleveland fans will eat out of the palms of his hands.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Cleveland wants an honest evaluation of their level, not excuses. The best coach Cleveland has had since returning in 1999 was Eric Mangini, and he was sacrificed because we brought in Mike Holmgren, who brought a new philosophy. I agree with Jigo's premise, and I'd go one step further: If Haslam comes out and sets a standard for winning, and talks openly and honestly about our team with the media, the fans will give him time. Dan Gilbert gets a long leash because he is open about his process, he has conviction about the people making the decisions, and he asks his fan base for time to build his empire. Kyrie showing the potential of being a top 3 PG in the league doesn't hurt the cause either.

Holmgren himself said they underperformed last year, and despite a tough schedule he expected to see improvements in the win column. No matter which way you slice it, this team was talented enough to win any of the games played so far, and walking out 0-3 after all of them... there's just no excuse for that. Meanwhile, Shurmur has a highly penalized team that, for the second year, has been failing on crucial special teams plays. He has always coached on the offensive side of the ball before coming to Cleveland, and specialized in QB coaching/ training. His relationship with Sam Bradford was a big selling point to the fan base on his hire. Yet Colt McCoy regressed under Shurmur (despite supposedly being set up to fail by Daboll the year before), and our offense as a whole took a step back after the defensive minded Mangini left town.

Now we've drafted one of the most dynamic running backs coming out of college in the past decade. We have one of the highest drafted offensive lines in the NFL (2 1st round picks, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 5th), but we are occasionally sloppy on pass protection and terrible on run protection. It is Shurmur's job to get these guys playing at the elite level their talent dictates they can play at, and it's his job to design an offense that can allow Richardson the ability to get 3 yards down field before initial contact. Couple all of the game time issues with the fact that he remains thin-skinned and defensive in front of the media. The guy just has trouble coming out and saying "I need to do better." If he's afraid of taking a large chunk of responsibility in our failures, that trickles down the the team. Anyone here who has been a part of a strong sales-oriented position can attest to the power of a convicted leader who believes what he preaches, and owns up to the results.

I completely agree with Damage that what this team needs is stability. I hope Haslam brings it. I'd love to retain Heckert, but we'll see where that falls. I hope we continue to press on with some version of the WCO, because at this point we're built for it, but we'll see what happens. Most importantly, I hope we maintain a 4-3 defense, because our strength and depth at the DL becomes diminished in a 3-4, and we do not currently have anywhere near the LB skill/ depth to handle a 3-4. Our secondary outside of Haden is terrible, and if we need to address other needs on defense because of a new scheme, our D will be set back another 2-3 years.

Finally, I'll take an historical approach to the Browns FO misery since 1999, and I'll do my best to be objective in evaluations:

'99-'00 - Chris Palmer - Never had a fair shot. He was the recipient of a team not capable of competing in the NFL, and he was the Browns first scapegoat for the failure

'01-'04 - Butch Davis - Our mistake was bringing Butch in in the first place. Butch wanted control (much like Mangini) and he got it. Due to early game time success in Cleveland, Davis received a lot of power within the organization. He used it to drive out Dwight Clark and took over GM responsibilites. By the time Davis was fired, the executive branch for the Browns was bare except for an esteemed team president in Carmen Policy and Davis' atrocious drafting record left the team in a state similar to 1999. This series of events coupled with a bad owner, IMO, is the biggest reason for the current state of affairs. Davis resigned mid season so he could get back into college football, and left a bad team in a sorry state. I don't think you can argue he didn't get a fair shot.

'05-'08 - Romeo Crennel - This was the only real hire Randy Lerner made who had a real shot to get something done. I'm again not so sure you can argue Crennel didn't get a chance. The coach and GM were hired independently (this is important because of Randy's next hire), and both were veritable all stars coming the to the Browns. However, very early into this budding team, cracks appeared. For reasons still unknown, Savage was quickly fired by team president Carmen Policy. Randy Lerner intervened, and allowed Savage to keep his job. This move pushed Policy, who had taken the job as a favor to former owner Al Lerner, to resign the next day. Crennel rallied behind Savage, but poor team play resulted in Savage continually throwing Crennel under the bus. As fans, we saw a professional organization implode and destroy itself over these 4 years, despite making the playoffs with pro-bowl QB Derek Anderson.

'09-'10 - Eric Mangini - Randy Lerner was determined not to make the same error he made when hiring Savage and Crennel. Rather than trying to pair together two guys who were both highly qualified for their respective guys, he picked the one guy he wanted most (Eric Mangini) and let him hire his own GM. Certainly this was a perfect solution. A GM and a HC working in tandem, who respect each other and can work towards the greater good of the team. It was all Randy wanted. Instead, Mangini brought in an old roomate in Kokinis, and went about marginalizing Kokinis' role in the organization as quickly as possible. We all know the story here, so I'll skip it. The end result: A good coach who is a terrible GM is in control. Lerner knows his plan went poorly, and I think at that moment, he gave up on this team. He offered a blank check to Holmgren to come to Cleveland and fix the unbelievable damage done to this organization, which has been piling up since the Davis regime. Holmgren comes in, and does just that. He gives Mangini an extra year to coach a bad team while he takes the time to put his system in place. By the end of 2010, Holmgren had his GM hired, his scouting staff in place, and he had a list of guys he wanted to run the team. Mangini was out of a job the day Holmgren was hired, and everybody knew it. You could argue he didn't get a fair shake as a HC, but he dug his own grave the day he brought in Kokinis, and manipulated his way into a GM role.

That brings us to Shurmur. Shurmur is the beneficiary of having the strongest front office the Browns have had since 1999. He has been given the time to put a plan in place, the resources of a championship caliber coaching staff, and the luxury of knowing the guys upstairs were 100% behind him. Considering all of the good going on in the organization, and the fact that Shurmur is coaching the most talented Browns team since 1999, his results are unacceptable. I don't buy into the fact that the Browns haven't given a HC a fair shot since returning. The only guy who can make that claim with 100% accuracy is Palmer. Tomlin and Cowher have been given as much time as they have in Pittsburgh because they were both great coaches, and their teams always showed it in the win column. The same could be said about Fisher's tenure in Tennessee. We haven't hired a great coach yet, and that's why they are driven out of town. Keeping a guy for 8 years doesn't make him good, but hiring a good guy gets him 8 years. It's that simple.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

And this is such a ridiculous line of thinking. WE, the fans aren't responsible for giving anyone time to build anything. In fact...fans are responsible for nothing and they owe a team nothing. The team doesn't technically owe them anything either. But if the team wants to sell tickets or merchandise, then it needs to put a quality product on the field. That's a professional sports team's job...entertain the fans and by virtue of doing so...make money. It's capitalism.

A fan base's "loyalty" goes as far as its team goes towards keeping it entertained. Attendance is, with very few exceptions, reflective completely of the product that's put on the field for it to watch.

If Pepsi changes it recipe so that it tastes like freshly mowed grass and it flops, then keeps the same flavor but adds horse hoof shavings and it flops again, THEN they keep the grass and horse hoof taste but add a little bit more sugar...is it the former Pepsi drinker's fault when they switch to a different soda or stop drinking soda altogether in spite of Pepsi adding something that was supposed to be a key ingredient of a successful product?

No...it's Pepsi's fault for bottling a shitty product. It's Pepsi's fault for not getting the point and making shitty decisions that fewer and fewer people agree to pay for over time.

Don't blame the fan base for quitting on the team. Blame the people responsible for putting the crappy product on the field.

With no fans you don't have a team. So the whole "boycott until they start winning" gets teams moved. Don't be surprised that if in a few years the Indians are moved out of town for lack of fan support.

It is the quitters mentality. I am not going to like this team until they win. Guess what everyone fails at something before they become successful. If along those lines those individuals quit they would never achieve success.

That is what is happening here. As a collective the fan base quit. So therefore the fanbase will never know success because they quit during the failure and couldn't put up with adversity.

You just described the loser mentality to a T. I want everything and don't want to work for it and if I don't get my way I am going to complain and scream.

In the face of adversity those would rather quit then see the adversity through.

Is that what we have become quitters?
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

With no fans you don't have a team. So the whole "boycott until they start winning" gets teams moved. Don't be surprised that if in a few years the Indians are moved out of town for lack of fan support.

It is the quitters mentality. I am not going to like this team until they win. Guess what everyone fails at something before they become successful. If along those lines those individuals quit they would never achieve success.

That is what is happening here. As a collective the fan base quit. So therefore the fanbase will never know success because they quit during the failure and couldn't put up with adversity.

You just described the loser mentality to a T. I want everything and don't want to work for it and if I don't get my way I am going to complain and scream.

In the face of adversity those would rather quit then see the adversity through.

Is that what we have become quitters?

Are you talking about the players, or the fans? Because last time I checked, sports was a form of entertainment, and I don't think most people find adversity to be particularly enjoyable. They have real life for that.
 
Re: Who is our head coach in the 2103 Opener

Oh man, we think the end is in sight? Doubtful.

If Haslam doesn't do exactly as the fans want him to and/or if the person he does hire to coach the team doesn't go at least .500 in his first year, fans are going to be calling to blow it up and get a new owner. Hell, they'll probably do that if we lose the opener. It won't be until the 40+ year old fans die of a heart attack and Michael Stanley loses his voice before the fans learn that shit doesn't just magically work right immediately.

What irks me the most is that fans boo these young players because we've stunk since '99. Not only does that not help them gain confidence, it makes other players want to avoid the city. We expect these guys to be robots out there and keep giving us plays while we relentlessly boo them. They're human too.

I don't think you are really mad at the fans. I think you are actually mad because you have been one of the ultimate Heckert fan boys and his team will win 2 or 3 games in his third year.
 
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