David Blatt is a former NBA coach

[gourimoko]

* oracio is inviting @gourimoko for a drink
Enjoy the victory my friend. When was the last time the Cavs crushed a western conference team like that and was considered as a true contender? years right?
Enjoy the moment, and I'm sure we will have plenty of time to look and digest what will happen here the seasons to come...

Fuck it! Go Cavs!

 

[KingDavidBlatt]

Great win over the Mavs. Only concern is that we might be peaking a bit too early.

 

[MirORich]

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post out of concession, agreement, or disagreement. It's simply getting too late. But did want to quickly respond to your last bit.

In 4 years Anthony Davis will likely be the best player in the NBA, alongside Kevin Durant. Who knows what could happen in 4 years.

It's hard to see where Kevin Love is going with his individual performance. I expect Kyrie to be right there as Top 5 player in the league. If Kevin gets back to playing as he did in Minnesota, then we'd have a solid team. If not, a team like the Wizards (say, with Durant?) could be conceivably better than Cleveland by that time.

This is why I think I've ended up trying to argue with you in this thread. I am simply asking what NBA franchise would you trade the Cavs for straight up today if your allegiance wasn't to a team but rather towards the likelihood of championships won over the next four seasons? Beyond four seasons EVERYTHING, every teams situation is an unknown due to age, injuries, development, regression, changing CBA rules that we dont yet know etc. I really have no care about 5 years from now. But give me a four year window and I say the Cavs are the most likely team to win multiple championships in that 4 year span. How much more can be asked out of a franchise? It's not fair to pit them against the field. Pit them against another franchise and is there any other one you think has better odds of winning more championships than us in these next four years.

But for me to say we're set for a title for the next 4-5 years while Kevin Love hits free agency twice and we have no draft picks is just not something I'm prepared to do. Maybe if we were Miami in 2010, sure, but not in our present situation.

We own first round draft picks in the of the next four drafts. They will be in similar draft position to any other franchise that is elite status over those 4 years. How does that equate to having no draft picks. We also have a strong group of players 28 or younger(Love, Kyrie, TT, Shump, Moz, possibly Harris if he can develop)

Almost every player in the NBA currently under contract will hit FA at least once in the next 4 years. Saying that Love will have an opportunity to hit FA twice in that time does not equate with a likelihood of him leaving. It's not even a guarantee that he hits FA twice in that four year window as he may opt in next year or opt out and signing a full four year deal here. I personally don't believe he leaves at all. If he did, obviously that would change my view of things in terms of the 4 year window I've been referring to.

So again, is there a team who you'd rather have for the next four years instead of the Cavs if your objective is to in as many championships as possible in those four years. Or is there a team who's "futures value" you would give up these next four years of the Cavs vs. what you think that teams future could be.

 

[gourimoko]

This is why I think I've ended up trying to argue with you in this thread. I am simply asking what NBA franchise would you trade the Cavs for straight up today if your allegiance wasn't to a team but rather towards the likelihood of championships won over the next four seasons?

I've already explained why this is a loaded question and why for the Cavaliers it makes no sense, when for example for a team like the Heat in 2010 it could make sense.

To answer it again, our near-term future is too volatile to make predictions about our likelihood to win beyond the horizon of this season and the next. Too many game-changing variables are in play including Kevin Love and LeBron James.

I've made this abundantly clear, I think.

In contrast, a team like the Heat in 2010 had it's Big 3, young, and locked into 4 year minimum contracts. We don't have Love locked in, and James is not young.

To sum up everything I've said tonight;

1) I've said since the Love trade, Cavaliers are favorites to win the championship this year and likely the next. (3rd time saying this now).

2) Love trade exposes Cavs to a potentially devastating blow if he decides to leave. In essence, everything you've said would end overnight if Love decided to go to another franchise. This couldn't happen in Miami in 2010. Love will likely have 2 chances to make this decision before signing a long-term deal.

3) LeBron is aging and declining. He's not the same player he was, even last year. He's not physically or athletically the same player.

I hope this answers your question. I know that you want me to name off teams I would swap for the Cavaliers, but in the context of this season that would be difficult and time consuming, and frankly, I don't really see the point considering I've said (now 4 times) the Cavaliers are in the best position to win a championship this year and likely the next.

 

[MirORich]

To more directly answer your question, plenty of people asked why didn't Kobe retire. Why doesn't Wade? The answer is pretty simple.... money.

LeBron isn't in the same situation as those guys.

Wait, Kobe(279 million) and Wade(150 million) didn't retire earlier because of money? How else am I supposed to interpret your above quote? I see LeBrons love and study of the game and ability to play where his family and friends like to live as a more solid indicator that he will go the Duncan and KG route in terms of career length, not the opposite which you are suggesting.

If Cleveland wins a championship, I can genuinely see LeBron James deciding to retire if we couldn't contend a year or two thereafter.

This is complete opinion. I respect yours, but fail to see what inside knowledge you're bringing to suggest that LeBron might retire at 34 based off of winning 1 title. Now if we win 2 or 3 titles maybe, but even then who's to say competitive spirit doesn't keep him from trying to pass Kobe and chase Jordan. Why can you genuinely see him retiring? Based on what statements or indicators that he himself has ever given?

You yourself mentioned Michael Jordan who "retired" three times, the first two directly followed winning a championship.

As Jordan put it when he retired from the Bulls: "I woke up and realized I had nothing left to prove."

But yet many Jordan historians believe that Michael and Phil both wanted to come back but Krause and Reinsdorf made it clear they wanted to clear the decks and would not be bringing the whole gang back. His hand was forced and then he came back yet again a few years later with the Wiz

 

[MirORich]

I've already explained why this is a loaded question and why for the Cavaliers it makes no sense, when for example for a team like the Heat in 2010 it could make sense.

To answer it again, our near-term future is too volatile to make predictions about our likelihood to win beyond the horizon of this season and the next. Too many game-changing variables are in play including Kevin Love and LeBron James.

I've made this abundantly clear, I think.

In contrast, a team like the Heat in 2010 had it's Big 3, young, and locked into 4 year minimum contracts. We don't have Love locked in, and James is not young.

To sum up everything I've said tonight;

1) I've said since the Love trade, Cavaliers are favorites to win the championship this year and likely the next. (3rd time saying this now).

2) Love trade exposes Cavs to a potentially devastating blow if he decides to leave. In essence, everything you've said would end overnight if Love decided to go to another franchise. This couldn't happen in Miami in 2010. Love will likely have 2 chances to make this decision before signing a long-term deal.

3) LeBron is aging and declining. He's not the same player he was, even last year. He's not physically or athletically the same player.

I hope this answers your question. I know that you want me to name off teams I would swap for the Cavaliers, but in the context of this season that would be difficult and time consuming, and frankly, I don't really see the point considering I've said (now 4 times) the Cavaliers are in the best position to win a championship this year and likely the next.

Sorry Gour. Even though it may seem like it, I'm not trying to suggest that there are no possible holes in the armor over the next four years or that there are not imperfections currently or in the future.

I guess I just believe if you have put yourself in the best position to win multiple championships going forward over a robust window of time(in the NBA 4 years is a large window) relative to the other 29 team in the league, than you have done the best you can do as an organization.

Pointing out the potential for non championship outcomes is fair and reasonable but no organization in the NBA has ever been perfect or won more than 3 in a row since the 60's so I think you should be graded vs. your contemporary competitors and not perfection.

 

[gourimoko]

Wait, Kobe(279 million) and Wade(150 million) didn't retire earlier because of money? How else am I supposed to interpret your above quote?

Let's take for example Carmelo Anthony, who has been reported as "needing the money," and hence staying in New York. It was stated that he "had business ties," and had to "maximize his earnings" and the only way that was possible was to stay in New York. That doing so was a "business decision" and not necessarily a "basketball decision."

Seems like a waste of time to recite career earnings for guys with whom we don't know their personal finances.

Simply put, if it wasn't for the money and if it was to prove something to oneself or the fans, these guys would sign for minimum contracts so their teams could win. It's naive to think these contracts aren't business decisions.

"Would you like $25M dollars?"
"No thanks, I've had enough."

I see LeBrons love and study of the game and ability to play where his family and friends like to live as a more solid indicator that he will go the Duncan and KG route in terms of career length, not the opposite which you are suggesting.

That's cool. I disagree. But again, I respect your opinion.

I think he'll do what Jordan did and leave while he considers himself the best player in the game.

This is complete opinion. I respect yours, but fail to see what inside knowledge you're bringing to suggest that LeBron might retire at 34 based off of winning 1 title.

Inside knowledge? Is that a requirement for disagreement?

I said flatly "this is purely speculation," I thought that was enough.

Now if we win 2 or 3 titles maybe, but even then who's to say competitive spirit doesn't keep him from trying to pass Kobe and chase Jordan.

Lol....eternal optimist!

Again, I don't think that it's very likely for James to win 3 or 4 trophies here in Cleveland at this point in his career and with the team we have.

But yet many Jordan historians believe that Michael and Phil both wanted to come back but Krause and Reinsdorf made it clear they wanted to clear the decks and would not be bringing the whole gang back. His hand was forced and the he came back yet again a few years later with the Wiz

Krause wanted to fire Jackson and trade Pippen, not really "rebuild" unless Jordan was gone. Reinsdorf gets a bad wrap in all this even though he lobbied Jackson and the players to defend the title.

But Krause and Jackson feuded, both publicly and privately. Krause didn't include Jackson in team decisions, the draft, potential trades, etc. He was impossible to work with for both the players and Phil Jackson.

Jackson approaced Reinsdorf and Reinsdorf secretly offered JAckson a 5-year deal and promised to keep the team together (meaning keeping Scottie Pippen). But because Krause felt that Pippen would likely leave in free agency, he wanted to trade him for draft picks.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with that we were talking about.

 

[The Oi]

If LeBron is to extend his career into his late 30's, he'll need to start initiating from the post and working on fadeaways like Jordan and Kobe did. That saves a lot of wear and tear on the joints.

I could see LeBron retiring after a three-peat, if one occurs.

 

[Ohio]

Judging on how he's already slightly altered his game, I suspect that LeBron will remain a top 5 player in the NBA for at least another 4 or 5 years.

Cavs will obviously be one of the favorites to win the title each of those years.

Will be a fun ride.

 

[teamballer]

I think I'm lost. Can anyone direct me to the Blatt thread?

 

[Kypus]

Coach Blatt, please practice the team more. It's worked just outstanding today.

Looks like that's going to work out just fine for us, now that we made it thru that brutal post-ASB stretch. Only 1 meaningful back-to-back left (seeds will be set for that BOS/DET set in the last week). TONS OF PRACTICE TIME to prep for the playoffs!

EDIT- OK, so this his been rehashed 9x after that guy I just quoted. My bad~
Oh well...kids like pictures

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Because, as I said, they aren't remotely the same players and don't play the game the same way. LeBron relies more on his athleticism and physicality than Jordan did. LeBron has also racked 41,000 minutes, now eclipsing both Magic and Bird's entire career minutes played.

So, yes, there is room for doubt that LeBron will have another 4-5 years of play at this level.

Again, I'm a bit surprised by this being a point of contention.



Again, Kobe's career should've ended 2 years ago. That leaves you with Jordan and Duncan. But you leave out an enormous number of players whose careers depended on athleticism and then suddenly declined after 30.

To use the exceptional as a way of projecting what is likely, I think, sets oneself up for failure.



Ahh.. I see. Well, again, I don't think those players resemble LeBron James in any regard other than them having also won championships; which, I don't think extends ones career.



You realize you're describing a negative slope, right? This is the right-hand side of a normal distribution curve. So, of course there would be an intercept ("looking like the first year in Miami") along a plot of LeBron's career statistics corresponding to an earlier year.

This is self-evident, and surely not evidence that LeBron is somehow on an ascending trajectory.



No, it isn't.

LeBron has surely declined athletically; certainly you don't want me to explain in detail how he's regressed, do you?



Neither do I, but that's not really the issue. The issue is how much of a contributing factor is athleticism to LeBron James' game? And I think it's fairly significant.

Is it all encompassing? No. But athleticism is a larger component in James' game than Kobe Bryant's.



Not true....

Teams that heavily rely on isolation to score points depend on those players individual talents to drive the offense. Whereas teams that rely on ball movement, weaves, and screens are less affected by the loss of an individual player.



Surely, but I think you and I fundamentally disagree on a few key points. I also think you are the eternal optimist, which for a Cleveland fan, is quite refreshing...

As always though I respect your opinion.



That is the gist of my argument, yes.



I have the Cavaliers as favorites to win the championship, and I've had that stance since we traded for Kevin Love. Prior to the trade, I thought we favorites to win the Eastern Conference.

I project the Cavs as the favorites this year, and likely the next. The math breaks down beyond that point because of the numerous things that need to go right that too many Cavs fans simply aren't willing to consider (like Kevin Love signing a max contract somewhere else, or LeBron James' game plummeting due to him physically breaking down).



In 4 years Anthony Davis will likely be the best player in the NBA, alongside Kevin Durant. Who knows what could happen in 4 years.

It's hard to see where Kevin Love is going with his individual performance. I expect Kyrie to be right there as Top 5 player in the league. If Kevin gets back to playing as he did in Minnesota, then we'd have a solid team. If not, a team like the Wizards (say, with Durant?) could be conceivably better than Cleveland by that time.

But for me to say we're set for a title for the next 4-5 years while Kevin Love hits free agency twice and we have no draft picks is just not something I'm prepared to do. Maybe if we were Miami in 2010, sure, but not in our present situation.

Man, your average post lengh must be one of the longest on this forum. Don't take that the wrong way because I tend to do the same thing where I respond to a post and before I know it I've written half a page.

 

[tocov]

This is actually a really really great sign for the playoffs.
We are playing VERY good after we have time to practice and make adjustments.
Given that time and Blatt and the crew studying tapes, we could bring similar performances every night.

 

[Jack Brickman]

That sentiment is shared by many in and out of sports. You go out when your on top, not when you're on the decline.

Sure this isn't practiced by most folks because most folks need to earn a living.

But LeBron isn't most folks; he isn't even most NBA players. As I said, if he brings a championship to a city like Cleveland, nothing more really could be done to shore up his legacy.

Winning two or more championships in Cleveland would surely do more for his legacy than one.

I think LeBron's game will age a little better than you're giving him credit for. He has all the skills to develop a game that isn't based on his athleticism. He's a good shooter, he's got a good post game, he's a great passer, he's got great court vision, etc. He does rely on his athleticism a lot, but it's not as if he doesn't have the skills to compensate for when that's gone. He does. The question is whether or not he's willing to adjust his game and shore up his weaknesses.

 

[nikolajz1]

This is actually a really really great sign for the playoffs.
We are playing VERY good after we have time to practice and make adjustments.
Given that time and Blatt and the crew studying tapes, we could bring similar performances every night.

Yeah, the sets we were running were great, especially the Love post ups where'd he come across the lane. Looked unstoppable.