Dion Waiters Traded

[Baseline Runner]

I suppose you could say that in Dion's case, it's all really just "potential", but then that means it's a potential he might not ever reach, so maybe we'd be better off trading him for someone who already is a very effective 3 and D player.

Three points:

First, it is not "all" potential with Dion. We have seen huge games from him and large stretches of the season where he has played very well such as the second half of last season. Players who are only about potential with no talent don't do those things (look the stats of the major lottery draft busts in the last 15 years). Dion has performed at a strong level at times in the past, much stronger than any 8 PPG, career bench player. Even if he just turns into a younger version of Delonte West, who also had his own problems, that would still be far better than just dumping him for anyone. Or if he is just a guy that is capable of going off for 25 points in 25 minutes on a hot shooting streak, even that is valuable, that can win a key game in a 7 game series. If he is a non-factor in the other 6, he'll play just 15 minutes in those games and that is what we have Lebron, Kyrie and K Love for.

Second, even if you believe Dion has a low chance of realizing his potential, despite his impressive performances in the past, a low chance of something great is far better than a player who can only ever be mediocre. Mediocre grows on trees, look at the list of players we have walked through these doors in the past 4 years. If the Cavs need another Earl Clark, Omri Casspi type player (both of whom started at times and were thought well of by many Cavs fans when they signed) there are plenty of those around. But potential is extremely valuable, it is why "all" potential players, of which Dion is not, get drafted all of the time in the lottery even though the GM knows it is a low chance he will pan out.

Third, to say that the rest of the league doesn't value Dion which makes Dion a bad player is a weak argument. For one we don't even know what kind of offers are being proposed for Dion, perhaps our GM values him very highly (we know Lebron does). There has been no indication that Dion is on the trading market. Furthermore, most teams in the league are concerned about their own team, not scouting all 500 players across the league of 30 teams. Most scouting involves college and international prospects of which there are many hundreds. If they really have a need for a certain type of player, sure they will look into those players for which they might not draw the right conclusions. League execs collectively make wrong decisions all of the time, especially when they get poor media coverage or excessive hype about a player (in Dion's two big games he had recently for example, not one highlight of his play was shown on ESPN highlights nor even a mention in the writeup).

 

[Tornicade]

[parsehtml]<table class="tableizer-table">
<tr class="tableizer-firstrow"><th>Defense Category</th><th>GP</th><th>G</th><th>DFGM</th><th>DFGA</th><th>DFG%</th><th>FREQ</th><th>FG%</th><th>Diff%</th></tr>
<tr><td>Overall</td><td>70</td><td>70</td><td>4</td><td>9.3</td><td>42.7</td><td>100.00%</td><td>44</td><td>-1.4</td></tr>
<tr><td>3 Pointers</td><td>70</td><td>70</td><td>1.6</td><td>4.5</td><td>36.2</td><td>48.60%</td><td>36</td><td>0.2</td></tr>
<tr><td>2 Pointers</td><td>70</td><td>69</td><td>2.3</td><td>4.8</td><td>48.8</td><td>51.40%</td><td>48.4</td><td>0.4</td></tr>
<tr><td>Less Than 6 Ft</td><td>70</td><td>56</td><td>1.3</td><td>2</td><td>63.6</td><td>21.90%</td><td>60.2</td><td>3.4</td></tr>
<tr><td>Less Than 10 Ft</td><td>70</td><td>61</td><td>1.6</td><td>2.7</td><td>58.7</td><td>28.90%</td><td>54.7</td><td>4.1</td></tr>
<tr><td>Greater Than 15 Ft</td><td>70</td><td>70</td><td>2.2</td><td>6</td><td>36.3</td><td>64.40%</td><td>37.1</td><td>-0.8</td></tr>
</table>
[/parsehtml]
This is Dions defensive rating for last season


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<tr class="tableizer-firstrow"><th>Defense Category </th><th>GP </th><th>G </th><th>DFGM </th><th>DFGA </th><th>DFG% </th><th>FREQ </th><th>FG% </th><th>Diff%</th></tr>
<tr><td>Overall </td><td>21 </td><td>21 </td><td>4.2 </td><td>8.5 </td><td>49.4 </td><td>100% </td><td>44.0 </td><td>5.4</td></tr>
<tr><td>3 Pointers </td><td>21 </td><td>20 </td><td>0.9 </td><td>2.6 </td><td>34.5 </td><td>30.9% </td><td>36.4 </td><td>-1.8</td></tr>
<tr><td>2 Pointers </td><td>21 </td><td>21 </td><td>3.3 </td><td>5.9 </td><td>56.1 </td><td>69.1% </td><td>48.0 </td><td>8.1</td></tr>
<tr><td>Less Than 6 Ft </td><td>21 </td><td>19 </td><td>1.9 </td><td>2.4 </td><td>78.4 </td><td>28.7% </td><td>61.3 </td><td>17.1</td></tr>
<tr><td>Less Than 10 Ft </td><td>21 </td><td>20 </td><td>2.4 </td><td>3.5 </td><td>68.5 </td><td>41.0% </td><td>55.4 </td><td>13.1</td></tr>
<tr><td>Greater Than 15 Ft </td><td>21 </td><td>20 </td><td>1.6 </td><td>4.5 </td><td>35.8 </td><td>53.4% </td><td>37.7 </td><td>-1.9</td></tr>
</table>
[/parsehtml]this season at this point

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<tr class="tableizer-firstrow"><th>Defense Category </th><th>GP </th><th>G </th><th>DFGM </th><th>DFGA </th><th>DFG% </th><th>FREQ </th><th>FG% </th><th>Diff%</th></tr>
<tr><td>Overall </td><td>10 </td><td>10 </td><td>3.7 </td><td>8.4 </td><td>44.0 </td><td>100% </td><td>44.2 </td><td>-0.2</td></tr>
<tr><td>3 Pointers </td><td>10 </td><td>10 </td><td>1.0 </td><td>2.7 </td><td>37.0 </td><td>32.1% </td><td>36.4 </td><td>0.6</td></tr>
<tr><td>2 Pointers </td><td>10 </td><td>10 </td><td>2.7 </td><td>5.7 </td><td>47.4 </td><td>67.9% </td><td>48.4 </td><td>-1.0</td></tr>
<tr><td>Less Than 6 Ft </td><td>10 </td><td>10 </td><td>2.0 </td><td>2.6 </td><td>76.9 </td><td>31.0% </td><td>62.4 </td><td>14.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Less Than 10 Ft </td><td>10 </td><td>10 </td><td>2.2 </td><td>3.6 </td><td>61.1 </td><td>42.9% </td><td>56.3 </td><td>4.8</td></tr>
<tr><td>Greater Than 15 Ft </td><td>10 </td><td>10 </td><td>1.3 </td><td>4.3 </td><td>30.2 </td><td>51.2% </td><td>38.1 </td><td>-7.8</td></tr>
</table>
[/parsehtml]last ten games

These numbers are indicating thats Dions defensive role is changing . Waiters has improved his perimeter defense forcing his opponent to get closer to the basket and while Dion has struggled he is showing improvement.


*** This chart takes the opposing players fg% when a player defended them and then caclulates that opposing players normal FG% to determine a differential.

This is a fairly new stat so im just looking at it for individual progression.

 

[crowned1]

Maybe Monty Williams posioned the players,
not cool NO

 

[tn819]

I am beginning to suspect this guy is just not particularly clever. His offensive antics and shot selection betray just a lack of awareness of the game that is a shame in light of his natural abilities. He is just not 100% there during the game and it is tough to see this guy as a long term contributor on any contending team. Sadly, I must say that trading him by the deadline seems like the best call.

How many times can you just yell at the TV "dion no!" before realizing the issue is not the system, not the coach, but probably the guy still chucking the least efficient shot in basketball when 3 of the 10 best offensive players in the league are running alongside him....

 

[Dylan Windler's Mom]

 

[CavsFTW]

I am beginning to suspect this guy is just not particularly clever. His offensive antics and shot selection betray just a lack of awareness of the game that is a shame in light of his natural abilities. He is just not 100% there during the game and it is tough to see this guy as a long term contributor on any contending team. Sadly, I must say that trading him by the deadline seems like the best call.

How many times can you just yell at the TV "dion no!" before realizing the issue is not the system, not the coach, but probably the guy still chucking the least efficient shot in basketball when 3 of the 10 best offensive players in the league are running alongside him....

Listen to Dion talk sometime -- it'll confirm your suspicions. He will not be winning the erudite award any time soon.

 

[FlatulenciaRoar]

Listen to Dion talk sometime -- it'll confirm your suspicions. He will not be winning the erudite award any time soon.

I heard he was nominated for the Pullet Surprise.

 

[Mr. Orange]

We should move him for a big. Solves two problems at once.

 

[Tlyons]

I think we have to get a ring before our role players start getting calls.

Waiters was fouled egregiously bad in the late first quarter iirc. Literally had his shooting arm hit and held down while attempting a layup. That's the shit that's messing with Dion's head more than anything.

With the influx of talent here he is being officiated like a rookie now.

Yea he has to quit yelling quite so much or maybe yell in a different way. That aye shit has been old with the refs for quite some time now.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Three points:

First, it is not "all" potential with Dion.

I'm talking very specifically about him as a "3 and D" guy, and your argument that 1) Dion will be a "very effective" 3 and D guy, and 2) that we won't be able to get any 3 and D guy that effective in a trade. Again, because Dion is a creator, he should be worth more than a "very effective" 3 and D guy who can't create.

Second, even if you believe Dion has a low chance of realizing his potential, despite his impressive performances in the past, a low chance of something great is far better than a player who can only ever be mediocre.

"Mediocre" means "average". And an "average" starting 2 guard is better than we have right now.

Third, to say that the rest of the league doesn't value Dion which makes Dion a bad player is a weak argument. For one we don't even know what kind of offers are being proposed for Dion, perhaps our GM values him very highly (we know Lebron does). There has been no indication that Dion is on the trading market.

Well, you're the one who set Dion's value by saying we wouldn't be able to get anything more than a mediocre 3 and D guy for him. I'm just saying that the considered evaluation of all the other GM's in the league that sets Dion's value at that point (again, according to you), is much more likely to be his "actual" value than the subjective opinions of Dion's fans on RCF.

Furthermore, most teams in the league are concerned about their own team, not scouting all 500 players across the league of 30 teams.

This argument is like a bad penny that just keeps coming back. Look, if schlubs like us on RCF are familiar with guys on other teams -- and we're talking guys with a No. 4 overall profile, not end of rotation stiffs -- then I think it's the height of arrogance to assume that the professionals who do this stuff for a living aren't familiar with Dion's game. He's not like a kid just out of college for whom the question of "can he make the transition" leads to a lot of different opinons. He's been in the league for more than 2 years, and GM's and their staffs have seen him many, many times. And any team interested in trading for him at all is going to study the hell out of him.

We know from stuff that has been leaked over the years that Cavs' GM's have followed players on other teams for years. Why should we assume that other teams aren't doing the same?

League execs collectively make wrong decisions all of the time, especially when they get poor media coverage or excessive hype about a player (in Dion's two big games he had recently for example, not one highlight of his play was shown on ESPN highlights nor even a mention in the writeup).

ESPN making (allegedly) poor decisions about what to show on TV is not evidence that NBA execs make poor decisions. At most, it's evidence that ESPN execs make poor decisions.

Anyway, your argument boils down to claiming that the entire league undervalues Dion, but you value him correctly. Can you see why that may not be all that persuasive?

 

[*L-Train*]

We should move him for a big. Solves two problems at once.

it also opens up another hole, we would basically have no scoring off the bench and that's already a weakness with him here.

 

[kookoo]

it also opens up another hole, we would basically have no scoring off the bench and that's already a weakness with him here.

Waiters is too inconsistent to be relied on though.

 

[Baseline Runner]

Anyway, your argument boils down to claiming that the entire league undervalues Dion, but you value him correctly. Can you see why that may not be all that persuasive?

How do you know that Chris Grant even wants to trade Dion or what offers he has received if he does? How do you know how much the league values him at? Seems your argument is based on unwarranted assumptions.

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

How do you know that Chris Grant even wants to trade Dion or what offers he has received if he does? How do you know how much the league values him at? Seems your argument is based on unwarranted assumptions.

At this point I don't really care about what Chris Grant wants to do

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

it also opens up another hole, we would basically have no scoring off the bench and that's already a weakness with him here.

Then exactly what are we losing?

Dion takes the 4th most attempts on the team, is shooting under 40% from the field, and under 30% in 3 pointers. He's a streaky guy, which doesn't work really well when what we need is consistent scoring from the bench.