Dion Waiters Traded

[Kouki]

posted in the game thread but i really don't understand the ripping on dion.

when atlanta was crawling back and lebron and kyrie were reverting to iso mode and forcing the issue, dion was doing a great job of driving and kicking to open wing players.

he missed a few layups he should have made (i think he was surprised at how open he was) but his defensive effort was great in the first half and his offense looked great as well.

i was slightly too intoxicated and on the wrong side of the court to pay too much attention to the defense in the second half other than horford and milsap tearing us up 1-on-1 in the post and a ton of easy layups.

the complaining is always annoying but the dude has been playing the right way. i don't understand why he gets to much flak.

 

[I'mWithDan]

i'm not buying this plus minus crap. at least not for the last few games.

Were you watching the same game? He was getting absolutely abused on defense.

Literally his man did whatever he wanted. After watching that game, I was actually surprised his +/- was only -25.

His offense has definitely been better but we don't need more scoring, we need someone who can stop the ball. That's ultimately why I've thought Dion would be moved. His best skill is something we already have plenty of.

 

[mcfly]

With Dion shooting 44% over his last 10 games, what are people going to complain about in a month or two if his FG% for the season is around 42-43%? He is already above 40%, so it is not that far fetched.

 

[Kouki]

Were you watching the same game? He was getting absolutely abused on defense.

Literally his man did whatever he wanted. After watching that game, I was actually surprised his +/- was only -25.

His offense has definitely been better but we don't need more scoring, we need someone who can stop the ball. That's ultimately why I've thought Dion would be moved. His best skill is something we already have plenty of.

I couldn't really tell much in the second half but in the first half his man defense was good

and offense was absolutely a problem last night. early on in the season our offense went to shit when the other team fought back. i thought we moved past that hump with the win streak, but the same thing happened last night. our offense broke down a little bit as atlanta was picking it up, then lebron reverts to iso ball. two assists in the first quarter, none the rest of the game?

 

[westsidebob]

posted in the game thread but i really don't understand the ripping on dion.

when atlanta was crawling back and lebron and kyrie were reverting to iso mode and forcing the issue, dion was doing a great job of driving and kicking to open wing players.

he missed a few layups he should have made (i think he was surprised at how open he was) but his defensive effort was great in the first half and his offense looked great as well.

i was slightly too intoxicated and on the wrong side of the court to pay too much attention to the defense in the second half other than horford and milsap tearing us up 1-on-1 in the post and a ton of easy layups.

the complaining is always annoying but the dude has been playing the right way. i don't understand why he gets to much flak.

So, you're saying he looks better the more you drink?

 

[Jordan]

Here is my biggest concern with trading Dion, especially since he is playing better basketball lately:

Where are we going to get bench scoring if, say, we trade him for a 3&D starting 2g or a rim protecting center? In the former, Marion is not a legit scoring threat; and, in the latter, if anything, I see it as an offensive liability. I know with the big three that is less important, but I think it is something we need to consider.

 

[David.]

We dint get blown out of the arena because of lack of offense. It can take a hit

 

[Jordan]

We dint get blown out of the arena because of lack of offense. It can take a hit

Ahh, good point. 15 points in the third quarter and 23 in the fourth are easily enough for us to win a title. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

Ahh, good point. 15 points in the third quarter and 23 in the fourth are easily enough for us to win a title. Thanks for clarifying.

You know what's worse than that? Giving up 39 points in the second quarter, 30 in the 3rd, and 32 in the 4th. Our offense isn't the problem. It's the defense.

 

[Jordan]

You know what's worse than that? Giving up 39 points in the second quarter, 30 in the 3rd, and 32 in the 4th. Our offense isn't the problem. It's the defense.

I forgot that they are mutually exclusive. Good call.

 

[Rich]

I forgot that they are mutually exclusive. Good call.

We're top 5 in offensive efficiency and 23rd in defensive efficiency. So if your argument is our bad offense is leading to our bad defense, I'd sure love to see some kind of evidence to back it up. Because even just going by last night's game, we gave up 29 points in the 1st quarter, a quarter I think we all can agree the Cavs played excellent offensive basketball. So even in a quarter where the Cavs weren't giving the Hawks many fast break chances because they were putting the ball through the hoop a bunch, Atlanta still scored pretty damn easily.

 

[Tornicade]

its not abou t points some of the best deifferences in the nba gave up over 100 points a game. it was about pace. giving up 60% plus shooting though is atrocious

This isnt a Dion proble m The starters were giving up the same percentage.

This team defensive had improved over an 8 game win streak and was around 15th in defensive efficiency and dropped severely over the past 4 games.

would corey brewer help ... maybe or maybe not. was this last game a product of a team just shooting lights out against a team that blasted them just a few weeks before.

the offensive three seem to get a pass on the defensive end.. lebron because he came into the season a stellar defender. Love just started playing fundamental defense last season and Kyrie Irving who although he has improved dramatically still is a question mark defensively.

Marion is a solid defender but sturggles with speedy guards or forwards with range. Av has to give up his primary defending position to acocmodate loves weakness and Tristan Thompson although athletic has consistently struggled against veteran big men.


Is there a team that would shoot 60% for 4 games against the cavs in a 7 game series.. Im rather doubtful.

Players are also adjusting to the zone and while it was effective for a bit. Teams like Atlanta and Toronto can make mince meat out of it.

its up to players to adapt and learn hwo to adjust during the game when the defense gets exposed and it may take the entire season to put it together.


The bench looks bad right now but it just cant be abandoned during the regular season. it needs to be ultivated and that takes time.

 

[STAT]

It's not that Dion is the reason (or even one of the primary reasons) our defense is suffering, Dion is being brought up in regards to the defense because moving him is likely one of the most feasible avenues to improving the defensive personnel.

Dion's primary contributions (at least theoretically), is scoring off the bench coupled with some playmaking and steady perimeter defense. Dion is not exactly thriving in this role, though he has been playing better in recent weeks. With us having three of the ten or twelve most talented offensive players in the league in our starting lineup, and our relative success offensively despite Dion's struggles suggests that it may be a wise move to trade him for pieces that will address our defensive issues around the rim and on the wing. That is, if when Dion is not playing very well we're still a top tier offense, then it seems that he is not the piece that would be most useful here, at least relative to piece(s) that may help significantly bolster the defense.

 

[kovanovich]

I thought the point of the Blatt offense is that you don't need a great creator to have a productive offense. Having guys who can competently run the offense should be enough during the short stints when neither LeBron nor Kyrie in the floor -- though in practice this is hardly ever the case, at least while the game is competitive.

Having a guy coming off the bench who can create some instant offense sounds good in theory, and it would in practice too if Dion were playing like, say, Lou Williams. But he isn't and never has. Instead, he "creates" (takes) shots and usually misses them. I've still not seen a convincing argument as to why this is a good thing.

Maybe he will become a Lou Williams type of player at some point. I'm more than willing to give another team the chance to find out.

Much has been made about the Cavs' lack of bench scoring. I agree the team isn't as deep as it should be or as I would like it to be. But using scoring as a measure of bench strength is, quite frankly, a lazy argument. I'm not going to dig up stats, but more often than not a team that gets a lot of bench scoring is a team whose starters aren't any good. One of those forgettable Cavs teams was for a while a leader in bench scoring (Ramon Sessions and a couple of others were doing most of the scoring), and we saw what that meant.

I'd like to see bench players who can play a role well -- defend, rebound, move the ball on offense, hit the occasional open shot to space the floor. If you've got a volume shooter who scores efficiently like Lou Williams, great, but otherwise I'm not going to worry much about bench scoring numbers.

 

[LeShaq]

I've gone back and forth with Dion. From "trade him" to "keep him." I like Dion, I like his game.

I think he needs to go. Even at his absolute best, he's too small. We need to get more size, including with our perimeter defense. Most of our rotation is undersized, with the exception of a guy like LeBron.

The two people on the team whose attitude concerns me the most are Dion and Kyrie. I would add Love, because he also has been playing for a loser his entire NBA career. Guys have to grow out of that mindset and 'lack of effort' culture.

As much as I like Dion, I don't know if he has or will ever have the highest basketball iq level. We need smart, disciplined vets around who don't need the ball in their hands and who are committed to playing defense and have the length to play defense. At least if we intend to do anything this year.

Would we get fair value for Dion in a trade? Probably not, unless we dealt him for someone like Koufos perhaps. Sill, given how things look right now and what we need on the team, I can see trading Dion for a lesser player who is a better fit on the team.

In order to maximize guys like Love and Kyrie, we need the right pieces around them. We also need the proper pieces in order to have a complete and balanced roster.

Maybe Dion could be such a piece in the future, but I don't think he's that kind of a piece right now.