Dion Waiters Traded

[Derek]

I wasn't trashing Beal, it was sarcasm. I know it's hard to pick up sarcasm even with an emote that is generally accepted as such. :chuckles:

The problem was that you were also being sarcastic in saying in a guy who can't dribble has upside. There was too much sarcasm to handle.

 

[SteelSmack]

The problem was that you were also being sarcastic in saying in a guy who can't dribble has upside. There was too much sarcasm to handle.

That was, in fact, all I said. Sarcasm for the whole 1 sentence post. Yes, terribly hard to pick up...

Any time someone can't dribble very well, that means he has upside. :chuckles:

 

[Derek]

That was, in fact, all I said. Sarcasm for the whole 1 sentence post. Yes, terribly hard to pick up...

You were sarcastically saying that Beal can't dribble
You were also sarcastically saying that a guy who can't dribble has upside

I thought you were only being sarcastic about a guy who can't dribble having upside, and were being serious that Beal can't dribble. Confusion gone. Crisis averted.

 

[Pioneer10]

In order for us to make it work Waiters needs to improve his off ball play. Ginobili is one of the better off-ball players around in terms of constant movement. Waiters, even when he's in the correct spots still doesn't look entirely comfortable with that role. It's something he needs to develop into, and in order to do that he needs to want to. Irving needs to help with that too by actually looking for him in the offense.

However, the primary reason I would lean towards making Waiters a 6th man (assuming he stays) is his size. His size is a hindrance to us, and not defensively like most would think. I'm talking about offensively. Him being undersized allows the strongest perimeter defender to match up with Irving while placing the PG on Dion. For this reason, I would limit the time Irving and Waiters share the court. They would still share the court a lot, but this would also allow for us to always have one of Waiters and Irving on the court.

Ginobili came over to the NBA when he was like 24: Waiters has shown he's willing to put in the work and with Wiggins at the 3 we'll finally should have the right spacing on offense. Now if only we're able to dump Tristan :chuckles:

Not sure about the offensive size issue. It's not like the Cavs tend to exploit mismatches, Dion should be able to overpower most PG's trying to guard him either on the drive or posting up.

 

[gourimoko]

I don't understand why Waiters cannot start, and then we stagger our rotations so that either he or Kyrie is always on the floor at any given moment.

This would mean a lineup of:

Three Guard:
Irving (36) / Delly (12)
Waiters (36) / Wiggins (6) / Delly (6)
Wiggins (30) / Karasev (18)
Bennett (36) / Thompson (12)
AV (28) / Thompson (20)

Or post-FA signing:
Kyrie (36) / Waiters (12)
Wiggins (24) / Waiters (24)
LeBron (24) / Wiggins (12) / Karasev (12)
Bennett (36) / LeBron (12)
AV (30) / Zeller (18)

But this lineup would only happen if we signed LeBron James. I don't really see the need to sign Hayward or Parsons now that we have Wiggins. You're better off just starting Wiggins at the 3 and leaving Waiters in the starting lineup.

 

[mcfly]

The problem with Beal as a second creator is that he does not typically require a double team. When he is hot, sure, but he usually will not hurt you unless you stop chasing him around. Guys like Irving and Waiters, on the other hand, almost always require two guys to at least focus on them when they have the ball. No knock on Beal really, like someone else said, it is a team composition issue.

 

[AuxiliaryPie]

Or post-FA signing:
Kyrie (36) / Waiters (12)
Wiggins (24) / Waiters (24)
LeBron (24) / Wiggins (12) / Karasev (12)
Bennett (36) / LeBron (12)
AV (30) / Zeller (18)

But this lineup would only happen if we signed LeBron James. I don't really see the need to sign Hayward or Parsons now that we have Wiggins. You're better off just starting Wiggins at the 3 and leaving Waiters in the starting lineup.

this would be ideal. If we dont get lebron, using our money on a big guy and using Wiggins as the 3 would also be ideal IMO. Assuming Karasev can play this year... however having Waiters as your 6th man would just destroy the other teams bench and be an epic closer in crunch time. I'm not one to follow the "be like the spurs" but Dion as a 6th man/game finisher would be huge

 

[Cassity14]

this would be ideal. If we dont get lebron, using our money on a big guy and using Wiggins as the 3 would also be ideal IMO. Assuming Karasev can play this year... however having Waiters as your 6th man would just destroy the other teams bench and be an epic closer in crunch time. I'm not one to follow the "be like the spurs" but Dion as a 6th man/game finisher would be huge

I agree with some of the thinking about Waiters. If you sign a guy like Hayward and bring Dion off the bench while he plays 35 minutes, who cares? Even Hayward could play a 6th man role.

Waiters has the skill set to dominate a game off the bench. He has the talent to dominate it as a starter as well, however.

I really, really want Chandler Parsons. This is a lot of the reason why. He can start at the 3 while Wiggins starts at the 2 (provided Wiggins is ready). When crunch time comes along, Dion is finishing the game. If Wiggins is having a rough rookie game, he doesn't. If Bennett is playing poorly, Parsons slides to the 4 in a smaller lineup to finish games.

To me, Parsons makes too much sense for this team. At least try to throw the kitchen sink at him.

 

[gourimoko]

this would be ideal. If we dont get lebron, using our money on a big guy and using Wiggins as the 3 would also be ideal IMO. Assuming Karasev can play this year... however having Waiters as your 6th man would just destroy the other teams bench and be an epic closer in crunch time. I'm not one to follow the "be like the spurs" but Dion as a 6th man/game finisher would be huge

I agree about spending our money on bigs. I just don't know how you do that unless you can do a three-team S&T. There's not many bigs left in free agency right now, and I never wanted Asik to begin with.

As far as 6th man. I think the concept goes out the window if you have the talent we're projecting to have; especially if you have LeBron James. This gives you 3 capable point players on your roster, each with 36 mpg. If you include giving Delly a Norris Cole like role, you've now got quite a lot of overlap for the point guard role.

So the way I see it, you're actually best off having Kyrie Irving attacking teams benches for long stretches of time because there will be times James will need to run the point -- and Irving is not good off the ball. This is how the Heat operate with James and Wade. Wade is their second option on offense, but he is generally on the floor at all times if James is not. Irving and James should have the exact same relationship. You only need both on the floor at the beginning of the 1st and the end of the 4th quarters. Other than that, you stagger them, having them play roughly 12mpg each without the other on the floor. This way opposing teams benches will get hit by one of either Irving or James in tandem with Waiters or Wiggins.

How do bench players defend Kyrie Irving or LeBron James? Short answer... they don't. That's how you rack up regular season wins and keep your stars' legs fresh.

 

[Jack Brickman]

No need to trash Beal just to make Waiters look better. Beal has no problem dribbling the ball, and he has plenty of upside just like Waiters.

Let's be real here...Beal isn't taking guys off the dribble with anywhere near the effectiveness of Waiters. That's the main reason I liked Waiters better than Beal as a prospect in the 2012 draft. He has that dynamic first step and the ability to get to the hoop at will that most guys don't.

It's obvious that Beal was better off the ball and still is, and it makes perfect sense. When you struggle to get around guys off the dribble, you need to be able to move without the ball to effectively put yourself in position to score. Beal has a game based around catching and shooting, cutting, and shooting off of screens. Waiters has a game based on creating separation, attacking the hoop, and setting up his teammates, although is spot up game has become pretty impressive too. I think both are pretty comparable from a "how good are they now" standpoint, but I prefer the game Waiters has because I think it's been proven that, in the playoffs, you need multiple guys who can create.

Waiters absolutely does need to get better off the ball, and I think having Blatt as a coach will really help in that regard, as Blatt might actually try to teach him rather than just moving him to the bench and letting him keep playing the same way.

 

[Derek]

Let's be real here...Beal isn't taking guys off the dribble with anywhere near the effectiveness of Waiters. That's the main reason I liked Waiters better than Beal as a prospect in the 2012 draft. He has that dynamic first step and the ability to get to the hoop at will that most guys don't.

It's obvious that Beal was better off the ball and still is, and it makes perfect sense. When you struggle to get around guys off the dribble, you need to be able to move without the ball to effectively put yourself in position to score. Beal has a game based around catching and shooting, cutting, and shooting off of screens. Waiters has a game based on creating separation, attacking the hoop, and setting up his teammates, although is spot up game has become pretty impressive too. I think both are pretty comparable from a "how good are they now" standpoint, but I prefer the game Waiters has because I think it's been proven that, in the playoffs, you need multiple guys who can create.

Waiters absolutely does need to get better off the ball, and I think having Blatt as a coach will really help in that regard, as Blatt might actually try to teach him rather than just moving him to the bench and letting him keep playing the same way.

Not sure why you quoted me here. I never said anything about Beal being able to take guys off the dribble as well as Waiters.

 

[Baseline Runner]

It is pretty simple, the Bad Boys Pistons should be our model:

PG - Kyrie Irving - Isiah Thomas: Both dynamic scoring point guards and excellent in the clutch. Irving needs to improve his play making to get to Isiah's level.

SG- Dion Waiters - Joe Dumars: Both all around guards who can do a little bit of everything well but not really great at anything. The Dumars comparison was used by many of us in the early days after Waiters was drafted and the last two years have only made that comparison look more apt. Dumars was like a release valve for the Pistons offense when defenses keyed in to tightly on Thomas, a secondary scoring and play making threat but also dangerous when he didn't have the ball in his hands.

SF - Wiggins -Adrian Dantley: Dantley was near the end of his career when he joined the Pistons but he was still a 20 PPG scorer. Wiggins probably won't be the go-to scoring option that Dantley was this early in his career but he will be an important off the ball player capable of scoring anywhere on the court. Having another dangerous offensive threat playing off the ball at the SF spot will keep defenses honest. He is also a much better defensive player than Dantley and will make us more a more dangerous fast break team than the Pistons ever were with his athleticism.

Forwards and Centers - Since the 1-3 positions each have potential 20 point per game scorers, you can just get the biggest, toughest, defensive minded big men to fill out your roster. They don't need much offensive skills, the emphasis is on defense and rebounding. The Pistons had Mahorn, Laimbeer, Rodman, Salley. We have Varejao but we could use a lot more work in this area.

 

[mcfly]

The only problem with modeling the roster after the Bad Boys is that the league is very different nowadays. If you could still employ true enforcers, things would be different. On a side note, I found it frustrating to watch that 30 for 30, if only Kyrie had Isiah's passion...

 

[OptimusPrime]

Courtesy of nbawowy:

Dion Waiters Off: 1.042 for, 1.100 against, -5.8/100
Dion Waiters On: 1.056 for, 1.070 against, -1.4/100
Impact: +4.4/100

Compare to other notable players:

Kyrie Irving Off: 1.039 for, 1.053 against, -1.4/100
Kyrie Irving On: 1.056 for, 1.103 against, -4.7/100
Impact: -3.3/100

Gordon Hayward Off: 1.021 for, 1.104 against, -8.3/100
Gordon Hayward On: 1.049 for, 1.128 against, -7.9/100
Impact: +0.4/100

LeBron James Off: 1.054 for, 1.084 against, -3.0/100
LeBron James On: 1.143 for, 1.074 against, +6.9/100
Impact: +9.9/100

Chandler Parsons Off: 1.079 for, 1.057 against, +2.2/100
Chandler Parsons On: 1.131 for, 1.078 against, +5.3/100
Impact: +3.1/100

Conclusion: Let's get Waiters the fuck out of here as fast as we can before he develops enough to ruin our lottery chances next year.

 

[Derek]

It is pretty simple, the Bad Boys Pistons should be our model:

PG - Kyrie Irving - Isiah Thomas: Both dynamic scoring point guards and excellent in the clutch. Irving needs to improve his play making to get to Isiah's level.

SG- Dion Waiters - Joe Dumars: Both all around guards who can do a little bit of everything well but not really great at anything. The Dumars comparison was used by many of us in the early days after Waiters was drafted and the last two years have only made that comparison look more apt. Dumars was like a release valve for the Pistons offense when defenses keyed in to tightly on Thomas, a secondary scoring and play making threat but also dangerous when he didn't have the ball in his hands.

SF - Wiggins -Adrian Dantley: Dantley was near the end of his career when he joined the Pistons but he was still a 20 PPG scorer. Wiggins probably won't be the go-to scoring option that Dantley was this early in his career but he will be an important off the ball player capable of scoring anywhere on the court. Having another dangerous offensive threat playing off the ball at the SF spot will keep defenses honest. He is also a much better defensive player than Dantley and will make us more a more dangerous fast break team than the Pistons ever were with his athleticism.

Forwards and Centers - Since the 1-3 positions each have potential 20 point per game scorers, you can just get the biggest, toughest, defensive minded big men to fill out your roster. They don't need much offensive skills, the emphasis is on defense and rebounding. The Pistons had Mahorn, Laimbeer, Rodman, Salley. We have Varejao but we could use a lot more work in this area.

So you're saying we'll eventually trade Wiggins for Aguirre and win back-to-back titles?