Dion Waiters Traded

[Pioneer10]

Why can't Irving/Waiters/Wiggins develop into our version of Parker/Ginobili/Leonard?

Wiggins at least until he adds more to his game looks to like a Leonard type (excellent defender, hit the open jumper, and finish off what others create)
Irving and Parker are both score first type of point guards (Irving has the advantage of the jumper, Parker is quicker)
Waiters and Ginobili play a lot like IMO even though stylistically look different (always attacking, able to hit the open jumper, willing passers, reckless at times)

I was quite excited to see what Blatt could do we our 3 guys until I came into this thread where a significant contingent still appear to be hurt that we drafted Waiters in the first place

 

[dark2332]

No need to trash Beal just to make Waiters look better. Beal has no problem dribbling the ball, and he has plenty of upside just like Waiters.

Beal is damn good. He fits our team better than Waiters, but both will be very good shooting guards in this league. Then again, if Beal had been there at 4, he would've likely been the pick. He wasn't. I believe Dion was a great consolation prize, he just has to work harder as his skillset doesn't translate as naturally to fitting next to Irving. If we stay the course, they will get it eventually. I just think Waiters is going to be a part of a deal to land us something significant in the frontcourt now or at the deadline. Don't want to see him go, but I think there's a good chance he is dealt.

 

[AllforOne]

Gilbert/Griffin were asking head coaching candidates how they would get Kyrie and Dion to work together for a reason... Griffin is a fan of both. Don't see Dion being traded unless it nets us another all-star.

I get that, and yet I can't quite reconcile it with the Cavs' reported interest in a number of free agent SFs (Hayward, Ariza, Parsons). Presumably, a new SF --> Wiggins to SG --> Dion to another team. (Either that, or Dion ends up on the bench, which probably won't go well.)

Then again, until we see contract offers being made, maybe it's all smoke. I hope so, because Dion showed a lot of improvement last season, and I'm interested to see how many more steps forward he can take under a coach who actually runs an offense.

 

[dark2332]

I get that, and yet I can't quite reconcile it with the Cavs' reported interest in a number of free agent SFs (Hayward, Ariza, Parsons). Presumably, a new SF --> Wiggins to SG --> Dion to another team. (Either that, or Dion ends up on the bench, which probably won't go well.)

Then again, until we see contract offers being made, maybe it's all smoke. I hope so, because Dion showed a lot of improvement last season, and I'm interested to see how many more steps forward he can take under a coach who actually runs an offense.

If we simply think that he must be dealt (I don't), then at the very least we should wait until the deadline. I think his play this year is going to up his trade value significantly. Maybe so much so they will be convinced to keep him.

 

[DatDudeZ3]

I think the Cavs want to use Dion as a 6th man, so he can have the ball in his hands more and run the show with the second team... Rather than sharing it with Kyrie, Wiggins and whoever we get in FA/trade.

 

[Derek]

Why can't Irving/Waiters/Wiggins develop into our version of Parker/Ginobili/Leonard?

Wiggins at least until he adds more to his game looks to like a Leonard type (excellent defender, hit the open jumper, and finish off what others create)
Irving and Parker are both score first type of point guards (Irving has the advantage of the jumper, Parker is quicker)
Waiters and Ginobili play a lot like IMO even though stylistically look different (always attacking, able to hit the open jumper, willing passers, reckless at times)

I was quite excited to see what Blatt could do we our 3 guys until I came into this thread where a significant contingent still appear to be hurt that we drafted Waiters in the first place

In order for us to make it work Waiters needs to improve his off ball play. Ginobili is one of the better off-ball players around in terms of constant movement. Waiters, even when he's in the correct spots still doesn't look entirely comfortable with that role. It's something he needs to develop into, and in order to do that he needs to want to. Irving needs to help with that too by actually looking for him in the offense.

However, the primary reason I would lean towards making Waiters a 6th man (assuming he stays) is his size. His size is a hindrance to us, and not defensively like most would think. I'm talking about offensively. Him being undersized allows the strongest perimeter defender to match up with Irving while placing the PG on Dion. For this reason, I would limit the time Irving and Waiters share the court. They would still share the court a lot, but this would also allow for us to always have one of Waiters and Irving on the court.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Beal is damn good. He fits our team better than Waiters, but both will be very good shooting guards in this league. Then again, if Beal had been there at 4, he would've likely been the pick. He wasn't. I believe Dion was a great consolation prize, he just has to work harder as his skillset doesn't translate as naturally to fitting next to Irving. If we stay the course, they will get it eventually. I just think Waiters is going to be a part of a deal to land us something significant in the frontcourt now or at the deadline. Don't want to see him go, but I think there's a good chance he is dealt.

Beal is very good. And if he was on a team with a PG like Irving and a post presence like Embiid then he might be a better fit. Or with James at the 3 he would be a better fit. But we don't have either of those, and you can watch the series against Indiana to see why he isn't a better fit here. Indiana put one guy on Beal, shaded the whole rest of the defense to Wall, and pretty much everyone was shut down except Nene for a while. Beal got some numbers hitting some pull up jumpers, but it was like pulling teeth trying to break 80 for them. That was what we will look like in the playoffs after we deal Waiters unless LeBron comes back. A team with one ball handler on the floor does not win in the NBA.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

I am not an insider or anything, but I did hear a rumor that it wasn't Kyrie and Dion that was the problem with buddyball. I heard it was Tristan. This came from someone not in the organization that knows them both, and it really soured me on Tristan. Dion is a street guy, and he is not really worldly from what I understand. He doesn't know what some things are like certain fancy foods and things that most people know about, and the guys tease him. Tristan is the main perp from what i was told. He thinks he is really funny and smart.

This is 100% an unsubstantiated rumor, but it make sense to me because Tristan never never passes it out of the post. If I were Dion and I was concerned about my touches, I would be way more pissed at all the opportunities TT was getting and blowing rather than Kyrie getting touches and converting. Dion definitely respects Kyrie, but I don't feel like he respects TT. He has way better chemistry with Zeller and Andy.

This definitely passes the eye test from just watching games. If this is the case, Tristan is probably gone. Hope Ferry still likes him because word was Atlanta was interested in him earlier. Wonder if they'd be interested in trading Millsap for TT. Save them $4M to sign free agents and give them matching rights next year. Millsap is done at the end of the year and could leave.

 

[Derek]

Beal is very good. And if he was on a team with a PG like Irving and a post presence like Embiid then he might be a better fit. Or with James at the 3 he would be a better fit. But we don't have either of those, and you can watch the series against Indiana to see why he isn't a better fit here. Indiana put one guy on Beal, shaded the whole rest of the defense to Wall, and pretty much everyone was shut down except Nene for a while. Beal got some numbers hitting some pull up jumpers, but it was like pulling teeth trying to break 80 for them. That was what we will look like in the playoffs after we deal Waiters unless LeBron comes back. A team with one ball handler on the floor does not win in the NBA.

Sounds more like a problem with the rest of the team than a problem with Beal. Wall really fell apart in the playoffs.

 

[OptimusPrime]

In order for us to make it work Waiters needs to improve his off ball play. Ginobili is one of the better off-ball players around in terms of constant movement. Waiters, even when he's in the correct spots still doesn't look entirely comfortable with that role. It's something he needs to develop into, and in order to do that he needs to want to. Irving needs to help with that too by actually looking for him in the offense.

However, the primary reason I would lean towards making Waiters a 6th man (assuming he stays) is his size. His size is a hindrance to us, and not defensively like most would think. I'm talking about offensively. Him being undersized allows the strongest perimeter defender to match up with Irving while placing the PG on Dion. For this reason, I would limit the time Irving and Waiters share the court. They would still share the court a lot, but this would also allow for us to always have one of Waiters and Irving on the court.

I love when we start analyzing his body language because we are out of tangible arguments. He looks fine moving without the ball. We didn't run an offense, so I don't know what you wanted him to do. And I don't remember other teams putting their best defender on Irving regularly, but I do remember Dion abusing PGs in the post a few times. Combine that with Wiggins on the floor and I doubt you would have to worry too much about it.

 

[AllforOne]

However, the primary reason I would lean towards making Waiters a 6th man (assuming he stays) is his size. His size is a hindrance to us, and not defensively like most would think. I'm talking about offensively. Him being undersized allows the strongest perimeter defender to match up with Irving while placing the PG on Dion. For this reason, I would limit the time Irving and Waiters share the court. They would still share the court a lot, but this would also allow for us to always have one of Waiters and Irving on the court.

I do wonder if Dion can be moved to the sixth man role more successfully this season.

I suspect a big part of why he resisted it last season was because Roker pretty much forced him there. If the Cavs decide that Dion would be best suited to coming off the bench, I would hope that Blatt could handle it better -- make it seem like an opportunity, rather than a punishment.

Between the 1-2-3 positions, there are 144 minutes to be played on any given night. That means 30+ minutes for each of Kyrie, Dion, Wiggins, and the mystery SF, with Delly/Felix/Karasev/Harris getting the leftover table scraps. (That also assumes that everybody is healthy. If one or more of those guys is injured, then obviously there are more minutes for the remaining players.)

I also think that Kyrie and Dion could start together, but could generally avoid playing together with some sensible rotations. Start them both for ~six minutes, sit one for the remainder of the first quarter, then have them switch places for the first ~six minutes of the second quarter, then finish out the second quarter together. Then lather/rinse/repeat in the second half. Each gets 32-36 minutes, one of them is always on the court, and their time together has been minimized.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Sounds more like a problem with the rest of the team than a problem with Beal. Wall really fell apart in the playoffs.

I didn't say it was a problem with Beal. It was a problem with the construction of their team. Wall struggled because 4 guys were guarding him. Spot up shooters around one ball handler has never and will never win anything. If that team had Wall, Waiters, and Beal in the starting lineup, they might have beaten Miami after beating Indiana.

 

[Derek]

I love when we start analyzing his body language because we are out of tangible arguments. He looks fine moving without the ball. We didn't run an offense, so I don't know what you wanted him to do. And I don't remember other teams putting their best defender on Irving regularly, but I do remember Dion abusing PGs in the post a few times. Combine that with Wiggins on the floor and I doubt you would have to worry too much about it.

What can I say? He didn't look comfortable off the ball last year? He looked better than the year before, but still not good or even average. It's a developing part of his game. I like Dion. I'm even providing scenarios in which both he and the team can achieve optimally.

Dion needs to abuse that PG match up more often so that they'll stop doing it. That post up game is another thing that he needs to keep developing to prevent the mismatches that worry me.

The 6th man role would be perfect for Dion. Sitting 4 minutes, playing 8, and repeating. He still ends up with 32 minutes and we always have either him or Irving on the court.

I didn't say it was a problem with Beal. It was a problem with the construction of their team. Wall struggled because 4 guys were guarding him. Spot up shooters around one ball handler has never and will never win anything. If that team had Wall, Waiters, and Beal in the starting lineup, they might have beaten Miami after beating Indiana.

I don't think a lack of creators is anywhere close to Washington's biggest problem. Beal is the ideal 2nd creator on a team with a dominant PG. The problem that arose in the playoffs was that Wall didn't play up to his abilities. His new jump shot disappeared, and it allowed teams to pack the lane on him.

 

[Cavatt]

I do wonder if Dion can be moved to the sixth man role more successfully this season.

I suspect a big part of why he resisted it last season was because Roker pretty much forced him there. If the Cavs decide that Dion would be best suited to coming off the bench, I would hope that Blatt could handle it better -- make it seem like an opportunity, rather than a punishment.

Between the 1-2-3 positions, there are 144 minutes to be played on any given night. That means 30+ minutes for each of Kyrie, Dion, Wiggins, and the mystery SF, with Delly/Felix/Karasev/Harris getting the leftover table scraps. (That also assumes that everybody is healthy. If one or more of those guys is injured, then obviously there are more minutes for the remaining players.)

I also think that Kyrie and Dion could start together, but could generally avoid playing together with some sensible rotations. Start them both for ~six minutes, sit one for the remainder of the first quarter, then have them switch places for the first ~six minutes of the second quarter, then finish out the second quarter together. Then lather/rinse/repeat in the second half. Each gets 32-36 minutes, one of them is always on the court, and their time together has been minimized.

I think having one of them on the court at all times is a no-brainer, and it also leads to mismatches the other way, and our effective pairing of Dely/Dion.

 

[SteelSmack]

No need to trash Beal just to make Waiters look better. Beal has no problem dribbling the ball, and he has plenty of upside just like Waiters.

I wasn't trashing Beal, it was sarcasm. I know it's hard to pick up sarcasm even with an emote that is generally accepted as such. :chuckles: