Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST]

[DatDudeZ3]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

Something else that really kills us is starting both CJ and Gee... With Gee out there, it's 4 on 5 on both ends of the court. Too frustrating to watch Gee... I could live with him if he was a good defender like he is talked up to be and he was playing bad on offense but he's playing terrible on both ends of the court. The only things I remember of Gee on defense the last couple of games is Lillard walking into a game winning 3 over him and the 50 year old Dunleavy blowing by him on offense and beating him back door and dunking on Gee getting an AND-1

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

Torn... there is a disconnect between your optimism and the reality of the NBA landscape we are playing in this season and how it pertains to where we should be as a team that is actively TRYING to win games and establish an identity. Show me the stat for percentage of teams we are playing against who are actively tanking and sub .500 VS the teams who are contending? Or the stat for front offices who cringe seeing us on the schedule knowing their coach by sheer ability to make in game adjustments, will have a punches chance against Mike Brown no matter how many guys he puts on the injury list for that night (Chicago had about 7 of them, 5 rotational, if you were wondering).

I dont need stats when the game is playing out in front of my eyes. There is NBA League Pass Broadband with archiveable games for this.

Defensive efficiency net average for a season means shit when an offense figures out how to exploit a defense DURING THE COURSE OF ONE GAME. Half the teams we have played have NO incentive to even try to win most nights. Chicago, honestly, is one of them. Stacey King sounded disappointed that we did not adjust our defense and shut down the great DJ Augustine and Tony Snell last night, you know why? Cause he wants Jabari Parker playing at home next to a healthy D. Rose and Joakim Noah next season. Mike Brown said screw that, take this win and enjoy it Chicago.

But by all means, tell me where our backcourt and bench efficiency ranks amongst 30 teams when 22 of them are actively trying to lose games every night and even then, we are losing games to them and their patchwork rotations.

When I psoted those efficiencies differences. I hadnt really looked at them before but they certainly do illustrate the differences between the teams home performances and road perfomances.

You expect a dropoff froma team playig at home to the road but the drop off of the starting unit is phenonomal and really pops out when compared to what the Cavs opponents are perfoming at.

you want to bring in other teams motivations or records. those things arent really a factor. it doesnt matter who the cavs are playing on the road they are playing horrible and the biggest offender is the starting unit.

I really didnt see anything optimistic in the picture painted by those stats at all so im left wondering if you read what im actually saying or presume that you already know.

I dont care who you have coaching the Cavs this starting lineup isnt doing what they need to do on the road and all the schemes and adjustment wont make a difference if the players dont put in the work to execute such a simplified game plan.

The Cavs are literally playing three times worse on the road than they are at home.

short handed teams win all the time in the NBA looking at the roster report isnt actually watching the game either.

CJ miles just isnt an NBA starter.

Alonzoo Gee isnt an NBa starter

Bynum needs to play on both sides of the court on the road.

Kyrie needs to play defense on the road. especially when he is nearly invisible or doesnt have his shot.

Thompson cant guard opposing teams front courts by himself on the road.

its a matter of scale.

Cavs have 2 starters coming off the bench and 2 starters who shouldnt be there at all.. by your own count its three starters since you think Thompson should be coming off the bench.. exactly what is Brown supposed to do to mask all that when combined with a complete total lack of effort.

What clear tyhough is Dion wasnt the problem and his removal from the starting linep did not help them. this is made clear when the players level of effort in home games is removed from the equation.

Its also clear that Gee's move into the starting lineup hasnt brought any progress or advancement.

Your solution is to fire the coach and bench Tristan. this really sets up bennett for failure because even if he is on the court with bynum. he still is sharing the court with GEE and Miles.

I want to see solutions that actually address the issues on court. such as setting the tone, aggresive defense and consistency on the road that isnt just consistently bad.

This team either plays defense and gets stops then cant score or scores and cant get stops. I havent seen you provide one explanation why the Cavs perform well at home and not on the road. or why browns strats play well at home and not on the road.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

you want to bring in other teams motivations or records. those things arent really a factor.

You could have just posted this and left all of the other keystrokes out of this. This is not math.

This illustrates your disconnect from the concept of this being a competition more than a geometric equation. I dont have any interest in your stats. Let's just leave it be.

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

You could have just posted this and left all of the other keystrokes out of this. This is not math.

This illustrates your disconnect from the concept of this being a competition more than a geometric equation. I dont have any interest in your stats. Let's just leave it be.

On their halftime discussion:
“We showed 5 defensive clips at halftime. I would be surprised if anyone would think there was anything good about them. We don’t drill that way. We don’t practice that way, so why we were doing it, it don’t know. It was just no discipline. I’m just disappointed that we can’t lock in and do what is important consistently. We are a young team trying to find its way, but hopefully this isn’t going to happen again soon.”


This recognizes your disconnect to what the Cavs are supposed to be doing compared than what they are doing.

your assuming the Cavs are out there playing within the scheme and when they dont these things come upp and you condemn the scheme they are supposed to be following but arent.

you give coaches too much credit and blame when it comes to perfomance. at some point the players are going to take accountability for how they play.

you cant make defensive adjustments if your players arent doing what they are supposed to in the first place.

You say Cavs look bad cause Chicago had a depleted roster. I say The cavs looked bad because they have been bad on the road for the most part regardless of who they played.

Cavs cant control what rosters are showing up or what their competitors goals are. what they can control is how they play, what they execute and the effort they give on boths sides of the court.

lets talk about the things the cavs can control before judging them based on factors they cant.

I dont need stats to show that the Cavs play well at home and lousy on the road. but apparently you do because you havent differentiated to instead choosing to focus on abstracts and blame the coaching on problems that are not new for these players but now have surfaced with two different head coaches.

Spacing was there , opurtunity was there. the Cavs didnt play both sies of the ball and didnt execute or take advantage of spacing they did have. your solution is to try and give them more sacing to not take advantage of. I dont believe its a viable solution and it certainly doesnt address the teams mentality on the road.

Cavs should enter every game assuming its going to be hard and they need to bring everything they have to win the game.

They players HAVENT proven themselves on the court yet therefore should feel the need to prove themselves every game regardless of who they are playing.

Every game is a tough game for the cavs at this stage in their development there are no easy victories.

 

[CleveRocks]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

I think when you are trying to break old habits, sometimes you have to deal in absolutes hence teh "always hard show". This team is still learning the defensive system as is still not often committed to it. For whatever reason they are least committed to it on the road. The difference between the first and second half last night was the commitment to defense. Clearly something was communicated at the half that got somebody's attention. You cant give up 60 points in a half an expect to win at home OR on the road. Its just not good enough.

People are talking both sides of Dions availability. Well he does have an impact and I think he would have had an impact on this game. But I can't say we would have won. I just think Dion hates losing and gets more fired up than Kyrie does. I am also certain that it did not help that Kyrie had been ill the night before, played 42 minutes any way and then had to carry the team offensively tonight. We talk about 42 minutes of NBA basketball as if it is 40 minutes on a treadmill at the gym. It is not. It is an all out feat of athleticism, and it takes a toll that you don't just recover in a day.

Anyway, Sad loss. But I hope the team continues to learn and get better. I would not mind a trade for a real small forward either, but in lieu of that, Karasev needs to see more minutes. If the defense is atrocious anyway, his offense is at least one positive.

 

[Rich]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

Torn has addressed a problem that has existed all season. Specifically, the STARTERS on the road. Removing Dion hasnt changed it. They go to Atlanta and lose the game in the first six minutes. Same stuff last night. Same stuff earlier in the year in games against San Antonio. The starters, even with Delly starting or Miles or Clark or Waiters or Varejao or Bynum are not bringing on the road to start games. Dont know why, but its been consistent.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

On their halftime discussion:
“We showed 5 defensive clips at halftime. I would be surprised if anyone would think there was anything good about them. We don’t drill that way. We don’t practice that way, so why we were doing it, it don’t know. It was just no discipline. I’m just disappointed that we can’t lock in and do what is important consistently. We are a young team trying to find its way, but hopefully this isn’t going to happen again soon.”

This recognizes your disconnect to what the Cavs are supposed to be doing compared than what they are doing.

:chuckles:

Was that a quote from Mike Brown?

Ooooh, I can do this too. Watch this...

Dion Waiters' role will be simplified this season under Mike Brown. He's the shooting guard, period. And the second word in that position is much more important to Brown than the first.

"I’m viewing him strictly as a 2-guard," Brown said.

"I even told Dion, 'You could go 0 for 20 for all I care. Shoot the ball every time you touch it. Don’t make a shot. I’m not looking at that right now because we’ll correct that part,'" Brown said. "I just want to see the little things that add up to championship level basketball. Each game I thought he’s gotten a little bit better in those areas.

Thats a direct quote right from his mouth. We see something ENTIRELY different from his rotations now, and rightfully so, but it goes to show that there are no absolutes in this game even when dealing directly with what a coach aspires to do with his team.

Again, he said he wanted Dion to have a simplified role as ONLY the starting 2 guard THIS YEAR. Let's not pretend that what is being spoon fed to the media is the bottom line, mmkay.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

Spacing was there , opurtunity was there. the Cavs didnt play both sies of the ball and didnt execute or take advantage of spacing they did have. your solution is to try and give them more sacing to not take advantage of. I dont believe its a viable solution and it certainly doesnt address the teams mentality on the road.

Spacing wasnt there.

Home game against Milwaukee, spacing was there with Earl Clark, wasnt there with Tristan. Tristan got in foul trouble, allowed us to open the floor and build leads. Didnt do that last night.

There are absolutely two sides to the game. Ive been preaching that since Brown was last here, but I have also been preaching that players like ours need to see results on the offensive end as well as the defensive end, otherwise the defensive effort wanes. Would we like them to always be dialed in defensively, yes. But then the same has to be said about offensively too.

Bottom line, I think the defensive effort is there to start games and as the floor spacing issue bogs down the offense and makes players passive/confused and start thinking too much on that end frustration sets in and they no longer play defense reactively on the other end, the effort on the defensive side is not maintained. Opposing teams are running as a result of playing 5 on 4 defense.

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

:chuckles:

Was that a quote from Mike Brown?

Ooooh, I can do this too. Watch this...



Thats a direct quote right from his mouth. We see something ENTIRELY different from his rotations now, and rightfully so, but it goes to show that there are no absolutes in this game even when dealing directly with what a coach aspires to do with his team.

Again, he said he wanted Dion to have a simplified role as ONLY the starting 2 guard THIS YEAR. Let's not pretend that what is being spoon fed to the media is the bottom line, mmkay.

Spacing wasnt there.

Home game against Milwaukee, spacing was there with Earl Clark, wasnt there with Tristan. Tristan got in foul trouble, allowed us to open the floor and build leads. Didnt do that last night.

There are absolutely two sides to the game. Ive been preaching that since Brown was last here, but I have also been preaching that players like ours need to see results on the offensive end as well as the defensive end, otherwise the defensive effort wanes. Would we like them to always be dialed in defensively, yes. But then the same has to be said about offensively too.

Bottom line, I think the defensive effort is there to start games and as the floor spacing issue bogs down the offense and makes players passive/confused and start thinking too much on that end frustration sets in and they no longer play defense reactively on the other end, the effort on the defensive side is not maintained. Opposing teams are running as a result of playing 5 on 4 defense.

one quote was an observation on the game. the other quote was one Mike Brown on his plan to bring Dion along. and he made a visual percetbile attempt to do exactly that fromt he get go. Dion is also doing those things a SG should be doing even as his role has changed.

that was mike Brown speaking specifically to the same Chicago game you watched and commented on. both of you seem to be in agreement that things were hapening out there that shouldnt. Brown specifically referred to defensive assignments just as you had been commenting that the defensive scheme wasn't adequate. Browns counter was they werent following the defense as it was supposed to be and definately not how they practiced. thats a definitive x's and o's quote not media jargon.

you state The Cavs rotations were bad. Brown confirms the rotations were bad. you assumed it as by design. Brown was clearly stating it was not by design. He even said he took it to halftime and showed them 6 example plays of what they were doing wrong.. you saying he lied? your own observations recognize the truth in his Chicago post game quote.

Once again not coach speak but a clear analysis of what was happening on the court.. definitively not generic coachspeak.

now back to spacing. Spacing did not lose this game. spacing doesnt allow the other team to score 60 points on 60% shooting. playing high school defense at an NBA level does though.

Clarks success hitting some threes is a good thing. Its really tiring after any players off the bench has an above average production that the knee jerk reaction is to start that guy and pit players against each other. you take one 9 minute stretch and provide it as proof against all others. but I got ya. had Clark started against the bulls the Cavs would of had a runaway win with all the spacing.

just dont see it.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

just dont see it.

I have no interest in engaging you on it anymore.

 

[Tornicade]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

since your not going to elaborate on spacing the specific spacing issues the Cavs were having against the bulls i found a good article breaking down type of spacing.

http://www.hoopskills.com/proper-spacing.html

Ball-Man Relationship
This applies to defense as well but is just as important on offense. If a player has the ball make sure that you are enough of a distance away that if your man were to help he would have to make an effort.

Moving Without the Ball
If your teammate starts to dribble toward you, unless it is part of the offense, move out of the way. Keep the spacing correct. Never take your man to where the ball is as this causes unsuspected problems and leads to turnovers. Make your defender make a choice, but never lead him into a trap. MOVE.
Don't Stand Still
Rick Majerus called me a statue once. I won't say what type of statue he called me because kids can read this but my excuse was I was attempting to preserve the spacing. He basically told me that if I just stood there they didn't need me on the floor. By moving around, space is created and holes open up. Defenses can rest when you are resting and that shouldn't be happening ever. Doing something is better than nothing.
Understand the Play
Many times a play is called that requires getting the ball inside. You decide to move without the ball and cut through the key. This leads your defender right to the action. Always remember the key to offense is to get the best shot possible and play that way. Force the defense to make choices. If the defense decides to double team the ball then someone will be open for a good shot. If the spacing isn't correct the double team will be very effective.
Court Realization
Understand where you are on the floor. Why would someone guard you away from the basket if you can't shoot? This relates to spacing. You must be in a space where you can score or be a threat. If you are standing at half court, your defender will go help out the teammates. Don't be too close, but don't be too far away either. Be a threat so that your spacing matters.
I hope this helps you understand how to create better spacing for you and your teammates. Don't be afraid to lead your team and direct them in this regard. It isn't uncommon at all to remind your players to maintain spacing so the offense can be as effective as it needs to be.

I did see alot of poor ball to man relationship on the defensive end that led to alot of easy Bull buckets in the interior.

so I went back and watched the 12 videos on nba.com of Thompsons shot attempts. I saw Gee run a couple defenders into the paint once and I saw bynum line up on the wrong side of the court but generally Thompson was setting up in the high court and moving in as he was supposed to. he had alot of clean looks that should of been converted but overall good spacing.

I went through Irvings sots and I noticed seeveral thngs. Bynum was often on the wrong side of the key. sometimes he didnt even move just stood right outside the restricted area line. I also seen kyrie pass up on give and go opportunities
I also watched some Jarret and Clark clips.. every play when the shot goes off youd have 4 bulls surrounding the key with or without clark on the court. some reason Noah stays near the paint regardless which 4 had the ball.. most of what I saw though was a bunch of guys jacking up shots without moving the ball and none of the guards coming to the top of the key when their guy was in the paint and no way the guy under the basket could get the ball to themTristan wasnt the problem out there.

 

[Dr. Claw]

Re: Game 26: Cleveland Cavaliers @ Chicago Bulls | December 21st, 2013 | 8:00 PM [EST

2. We need to upgrade SF. Badly. Watching Tony Snell play and continue developing under Thibs makes my stomach double over with your reluctance to play rookies like Karasev and Bennett. SMH... Larry Brown is out of the pros for his reluctance to play kids. Popovich has relied on kids heavily in the last 3 years to reduce veterans minutes and bring the kids along. Wake up Mike. This isnt 2005 anymore man.

Especially in a season like this, where the Cavs can still suck and get in the playoffs (we know we aren't a title threat yet). I get Mike is trying to get his rotations down (on a team w/o a SF).

(never mind, I reread your post). who would you suggest playing at the 3? Karasev?

I think it might be a good idea... I don't consider this current Cavs squad as "win now", just "don't be a lottery team again" (though this season I wouldn't be too mad if that happened, considering this draft is way better than last year's)