Indians Trade Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco to Phillies for Prospects

[Chris]

How can anyone argue that the Red Sox came out on top in the Manny deal?

They gave up prospects and Manny to acquire a lesser talented player in Jason Bay.

This is the model we should have followed?

I'll take my chances with a boatload of prospects, especially if a proven player would have only marginally helped in getting us to compete right now.

I would have disagreed last year when Bay was raking, but look at him now.

 

[Jon]

If you really want to use trades that can be compared then you would have to take teams in the lower half of pay roll for the MLB. Using the top spenders in a rigged game is like rigging your argument because these top teams can actually afford to pay their players since money isn't an obstacle. Which IMO is the biggest issue with the game today, bigger the PED's.

I wasn't "comparing" anything, I was stating that Boston didn't dump Manny for prospects, they ended up with a MLB experienced player with proven 30hr/yr production. They replaced him.

But yes, the reason why "poor" teams (as-if a corporation earning over $50m/yr is poor!) have to give away all-stars for prospects is because the game has become a joke. Just because you recognize it's a joke, doesn't make it ok.

 

[tedginnjr]

Carrasco continues to struggle... 5 runs in 7 innings.

 

[AZ_]

His first seven innings were great.

He lost it in the eighth I believe.

 

[tedginnjr]

His first seven innings were great.

He lost it in the eighth I believe.

Yep, just went back and looked. Gave up one run on two hits in the first seven innings.

 

[7foot3]

Unproven prospects are not fair value for a star player, let alone a Cy Young winner.

There's not much to this statement. All players used to be prospects at some point, and "unproven" to people like you. Bill James has shown that we can make really good predictions at how prospects will end up, and some other very smart people have come up with a good estimation of the value of a prospect. Saying the return isn't fair value because you think prospects are "unproven" or haven't hit the majors yet doesn't work anymore with today's analysis.

 

[macbdog]

We won't know if it was fair value until a couple years from now. That is the risk you take, but then again, that is the risk involved when you are dealing guys who are only contractually obligated to your club for one more year.

What we can judge is whether the potential of the prospects in return are worth the player dealt. In Vic's case, I think they were, but for Lee it looks subpar. Again, the players in question can easily prove this to be wrong in a year or two, but right now on the surface it just doesn't look like enough. In the end, I have to trust Shapiro on that one b/c he has shown that his strength is in scouting other team's systems.

 

[Otsego Mar]

Lee through first 3 games as a Philly (impressive):

Pitching:

1.13
Wins = 3
Loses = 0
K's = 23
IP = 24
ERs = 3
Hits Allowed = 16

Hitting:

.333
2B's = 2
R's = 1
Hits = 3

 

[Gimme Some Mo]

Lee through first 3 games as a Philly (impressive):

Pitching:

1.13
Wins = 3
Loses = 0
K's = 23
IP = 24
ERs = 3
Hits Allowed = 16

Hitting:

.333
2B's = 2
R's = 1
Hits = 3

Wow. Is that really necessary Cliff? You couldn't just go dominate pitching? You also had to prove you are better than our hitters too?

 

[NorthCoastBias]

Maybe he'll pull a Rick Sutcliff and win the Cy Young by only pitching half a season in the NL after being traded from the Indians.

 

[Jon]

There's not much to this statement. All players used to be prospects at some point, and "unproven" to people like you. Bill James has shown that we can make really good predictions at how prospects will end up, and some other very smart people have come up with a good estimation of the value of a prospect. Saying the return isn't fair value because you think prospects are "unproven" or haven't hit the majors yet doesn't work anymore with today's analysis.

All depends on your definition of fair.

In my definition, fair means equal value, but nothing even close to that happens in MLB because of the payroll disparities.

Perhaps Cliff Lee is not a great example because he hasn't been very consistent throughout his career and it's hard to put a value on a pitcher like that, but CC was well established. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that he wasn't worth a 30hr/yr slugger? .vs. a prospect who if we're lucky might turn in to one?

 

[JayP146]

Getting fair value for your Cy Young winner is irrelevant when it's simply not financially feasible to re-sign him after next season ... this was his peak.

 

[MoFlo]

Wow. Is that really necessary Cliff? You couldn't just go dominate pitching? You also had to prove you are better than our hitters too?

You probably were, but I really hope you were joking :chuckles:

 

[tedginnjr]

Cliff Lee is just another example of NL hitting being a joke.

 

[macbdog]

Maybe he'll pull a Rick Sutcliff and win the Cy Young by only pitching half a season in the NL after being traded from the Indians.

Lincecum wouild have to blow out his elbow falling off his tricycle for that to be possible.