Indians Trade Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco to Phillies for Prospects

[Jon]

Bollocks. Cliff Lee has much more trade value right now as compared to next year at the trading deadline.

Problem in a nutshell right there. They've actually got you convinced that was a fair deal.

Not a single top prospect for the current Cy Young award winner, or an All-Star catcher?

If you actually cared about the Indians and MLB, you should be crying.

 

[AZ_]

Problem in a nutshell right there. They've actually got you convinced that was a fair deal.

Not a single top prospect for the current Cy Young award winner, or an All-Star catcher?

If you actually cared about the Indians and MLB, you should be crying.

Depends on whether or not you listen to the humps at ESPN....

All they got for Lee was a prospect with injury problems in Knapp, and they should have got Drabek because he is a "top prospect."

What they won't tell you is that MANY scouts are higher on Knapp than they are on Drabek, and EVERYBODY seems to forget the fact Drabek is a year removed from TJ surgery.

If the roles were reversed, and a guy named Jason Drabek was sitting in single-A with the pedigree of his great father....you can bet the roles would be reversed.

I'll trust the scouting of Shapiro and company at judging minor leaguers....they have proven time and time again that this is their strength.

 

[Amherstcavsfan]

If you actually cared about the Indians and MLB, you should be crying.

:chuckles:

Whatever you say.

 

[KIisKing]

Problem in a nutshell right there. They've actually got you convinced that was a fair deal.

Not a single top prospect for the current Cy Young award winner, or an All-Star catcher?

If you actually cared about the Indians and MLB, you should be crying.

I dont really know what you were looking for but we did get 3 top 100 Baseball America prospects. Just because a group of scouts has the player listed as the fifth best instead of 1st best doesnt mean anything. Its a personal opinion really, these kids take turns for the worst and turns for the better. You never really now whats around the corner.

We werent going to get the same amount in return as we did for C.C considering that most people said C.C was entering his prime and that Cliff is leaving his prime. He is a Cy Young winner but the guy isnt as good as C.C or Santana, so his value is lower.

Knapp is projected to very very good along with Carasco. Number one and number two guys. Donald and Marson are projected to be above average major league players, that play everyday. I was not a huge fan of the deal but for what we needed im pleased and excited to see these progress.

 

[DougHeil]

I don't know how people can definitely say the prospects we got are not good, or that they are bad. How do we know? Did we know anything at all about Sizemore, Phillips, and Lee when we traded Colon? I seem to remember many bitching about that trade as well.

I will say this; in his first outing, that Kid Masterson looked damn studly. I think we received a total of 12 or 13 pitchers beginning with the DeRosa trade. If only 4 of them turn out to be "really" good pitchers, I'd say we did quite well, but we won't know that for a little while.

 

[KIisKing]

Jess Todd is lighting it up in Colmbus. Wouldnt be surprised if he was called up by the end of the year. I think that DeRosa trade might have been the best one we made.

 

[Chris]

Jess Todd is lighting it up in Colmbus. Wouldnt be surprised if he was called up by the end of the year. I think that DeRosa trade might have been the best one we made.

I doubt it. In the end Jess Todd is just another reliever prospect and he doesn't really have amazing stuff, although he is a very good prospect.

If that trade ends up being better than the two big ones, we're in trouble.

 

[Jon]

I don't know how people can definitely say the prospects we got are not good, or that they are bad. How do we know? Did we know anything at all about Sizemore, Phillips, and Lee when we traded Colon? I seem to remember many bitching about that trade as

The problem is that they ARE prospects who haven't played a single meaningful game at the major league level; and again, the Colon deal is not a great indicator of anything because the Expos had a terrific farm system and we were allowed to skim the cream off the top.

Yeah, some of them might pan out ... and then when their contract runs out we'll trade them for another pile of prospects and the whole process will repeat.

It's nuts.

It was fun when we were able to pretend to be a market just a notch below the Yanks and Sox when Dick Jacobs was running the show, but those days are over and MLB is broken.

 

[AZ_]

The problem is that they ARE prospects who haven't played a single meaningful game at the major league level; and again, the Colon deal is not a great indicator of anything because the Expos had a terrific farm system and we were allowed to skim the cream off the top.

That is not even really true.

Lee was not even in the Expos top 10 according to Baseball America, although he was having a season which put him #3 in the Indians system after the season.

 

[southbeach]

Problem in a nutshell right there. They've actually got you convinced that was a fair deal.

Not a single top prospect for the current Cy Young award winner, or an All-Star catcher?

If you actually cared about the Indians and MLB, you should be crying.

After the trade deadline had ended and I read about all the players we received. The only words that came to mind were salary dump.

 

[Jon]

That is not even really true.

Lee was not even in the Expos top 10 according to Baseball America, although he was having a season which put him #3 in the Indians system after the season.

Maybe Baseball America needed to update their numbers... he was doing this before being traded:

Cliff Lee's game really fell into place in 2002, mostly due to a smoother delivery that he did a better job of repeating, prompting better command. He throws both a two-seam and a four-seam fastball in the 88-93 mph range, and mixes things up with an 81-mph slider, a slow (72-mph) curve, and a 79-mph change-up. He has an athletic/slender build and has shown some durability.



Lee was 7-2 with a 3.23 ERA, a 4.6-to-1 strikeout-to-walk ratio, a league-leading 105 strikeouts, and a .197 opponent batting average at Double-A Harrisburg. The 23-year-old will switch Eastern League teams and move to Akron (incidentally, they were playing each other at the time of the deal), joining fellow left-handed pitching prospects Billy Traber, Brian Tallet and Alex Herrera. Lee figures to be ready for the majors at the end of the 2003 season. His upside is that of a #3 starter.

Carasco had a season like that in 2008, but his record and ERA have been crap in 2009, so I don't see how you can even rate the top prospect we got in the Lee deal even to Lee who was the #2 or perhaps the #3 guy in the Colon deal.

But regardless, it's still idiotic that we gave up the best pitcher in the majors last season for guys who haven't (and may never) even whif the majors. Even if it was the best we could do, it's still nuts.

 

[ice cream man]

Problem in a nutshell right there. They've actually got you convinced that was a fair deal.

Not a single top prospect for the current Cy Young award winner, or an All-Star catcher?

If you actually cared about the Indians and MLB, you should be crying.

You need to realize that the big name prospects were not going anywhere. Period. If they weren't going for Roy Halladay, why would they go for Lee or Martinez.

You think the Blue Jays did the right thing (now they might trade Halladay this offseason, or next season, but get less for him)? Now there's a 0% chance they contend next year (with or without Halladay) in a division with the Rays, Yanks, and Sox. And it's obvious Halladay will walk when his contract is up. Maybe they're still hoping a team will give in, and trade them a #1 prospect. But a large amount of contenders makes this less likely.

Lee was in the same situation as Halladay. There's no doubt he was going to go elsewhere when his contract was up. And even if we kept Lee and Martinez, do you really think we would have had a chance to contend next year? We would still have a terrible rotation and bullpen, which is why we stocked up on young arms with, as it looks now, great potential.

I agree with trading Lee and Martinez this season, but I am very sad to see Victor go. We obviously took the best deal we could get. Kershaw, Billingsly, Buchholz, etc, were simply unavailable. How can you be mad at the Tribe for not getting them? It's not like we turned them down.
I'm frustrated with our ownership, as is everyone else. But folks have to understand, we were not in a good situation to begin with, and what Shapiro did had to be done.

 

[Amherstcavsfan]

Maybe Baseball America needed to update their numbers... he was doing this before being traded:




Carasco had a season like that in 2008, but his record and ERA have been crap in 2009, so I don't see how you can even rate the top prospect we got in the Lee deal even to Lee who was the #2 or perhaps the #3 guy in the Colon deal.

But regardless, it's still idiotic that we gave up the best pitcher in the majors last season for guys who haven't (and may never) even whif the majors. Even if it was the best we could do, it's still nuts.

Sounds to me like you would hate this trade no matter what prospects got back.

You use the term prospects as if it were a slight. I say it because that's how the Indians have to build their team, with draft and traded prospects. Sounds to me that you're just too impatient to be a baseball fan in general.

 

[macbdog]

Jess Todd is lighting it up in Colmbus. Wouldnt be surprised if he was called up by the end of the year. I think that DeRosa trade might have been the best one we made.

It does look like it is going to help, and it was a nice recovery of the reliever prospects they dealt to get DeRosa in the first place.

The best deal will probably be Victor's. Lee's deal hinges on Knapp. If he pans, well, he will be better than Drabek/Happ. I like Jason Donald, but the other two parts of the trade just don't wow me. Carrasco has too many issues and I don't get the deal for Marson when the club already has Santana, Toregas, and Gimenez.

 

[tedginnjr]

Sounds to me like you would hate this trade no matter what prospects got back.

You use the term prospects as if it were a slight. I say it because that's how the Indians have to build their team, with draft and traded prospects. Sounds to me that you're just too impatient to be a baseball fan in general.

At least a Cleveland Indians fan...