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Indians Trade Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco to Phillies for Prospects

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At least a Cleveland Indians fan...

or maybe a MLB fan in general. Patience is key to be a fan in MLB if you are small market. The problem is though; the NFL's contract is up I think next year. It's very possible they won't have a salary cap after that so that means it's like MLB. Won't that be fun?

I don't understand why owners can't put their feet down and not give in. Isn't it obvious to everyone in baseball that the "have's" always have and the "have not's" always don't have? Baseball use to be a game. It's not a game anymore and that's very sad. If a cap was instituted, it will be a game again. I hope the NFL gets their shit together soon. If not, we'll have the New Yorks, the Chicagos, the LAs, the sanFrans, etc all buying their way to the ship, just like baseball is now.
 
Does anyone think that Marson and Donald could be traded this off-season for a proven major league player?

I know we just cleared a whole bunch of salary but we dont really need those guys and we could use an extra player to keep the team glued.
 
Does anyone think that Marson and Donald could be traded this off-season for a proven major league player?

I know we just cleared a whole bunch of salary but we dont really need those guys and we could use an extra player to keep the team glued.

I'm guessing they'll both be dealt at some point. Maybe for pitching prospects, maybe for a proven reliever or something, but I think they'll definitely be dealt. We have catcher taken up (Santana) and the infield is pretty full (Cabrera, Peralta, Valbuena).
 
Sounds to me like you would hate this trade no matter what prospects got back.

Exactly!!! I wasn't clear on that point?

Unproven prospects are not fair value for a star player, let alone a Cy Young winner.

You use the term prospects as if it were a slight. I say it because that's how the Indians have to build their team, with draft and traded prospects. Sounds to me that you're just too impatient to be a baseball fan in general.

Nah... they can't build a team. They can't afford a team.

It has nothing to do with patience. Patience is futile. We just salary dumped 2 Cy Young pitchers and an All Star catcher. Two of them were considered gems of our farm system at one point in time. Are they washed up? Heck no, they're all hitting their prime. Cliff Lee may be on the flip side, but if he can avoid injury, he has the type of build and pitching style that might keep him going in the league for a long long time.

This is nuts. How do you rationalize it?

The sad thing is nothing is going to change as long as fans keep accepting and supporting the current system.

The very essence of sports is the concept of a level playing field, a fixed set of rules that everyone must abide. No such thing exists in MLB.

Not that MLB has ever had payroll parity, but it was never this bad. When Phil Seghi and Gabe Paul were selling off Gregg Nettles and Chris Chambliss, there were only 3000 people going to the game, and they were happy if they broke a million for the season when tickets cost as little as .50 cents, and a box friggen seat was $4.50.

But these days, even 2-3 million fans paying $20/seat and isn't enough to allow teams to re-sign their own players.

The sport has become an abomination.
 
Exactly!!! I wasn't clear on that point?

Unproven prospects are not fair value for a star player, let alone a Cy Young winner.

I'm not sure if you know this but whenever a star player in the MLB gets traded 95% its for young prospects. Baseball is a totally different sport then football and basketball.
 
Exactly!!! I wasn't clear on that point?

Unproven prospects are not fair value for a star player, let alone a Cy Young winner.



Nah... they can't build a team. They can't afford a team.

It has nothing to do with patience. Patience is futile. We just salary dumped 2 Cy Young pitchers and an All Star catcher. Two of them were considered gems of our farm system at one point in time. Are they washed up? Heck no, they're all hitting their prime. Cliff Lee may be on the flip side, but if he can avoid injury, he has the type of build and pitching style that might keep him going in the league for a long long time.

This is nuts. How do you rationalize it?

The sad thing is nothing is going to change as long as fans keep accepting and supporting the current system.

The very essence of sports is the concept of a level playing field, a fixed set of rules that everyone must abide. No such thing exists in MLB.

Not that MLB has ever had payroll parity, but it was never this bad. When Phil Seghi and Gabe Paul were selling off Gregg Nettles and Chris Chambliss, there were only 3000 people going to the game, and they were happy if they broke a million for the season when tickets cost as little as .50 cents, and a box friggen seat was $4.50.

But these days, even 2-3 million fans paying $20/seat and isn't enough to allow teams to re-sign their own players.

The sport has become an abomination.

Because I love baseball. Sorry, deep down, it's all about loving the sport. It's clear that you do not love it, no harm done, but you aren't going to understand why people think this is a good idea then.

Now this isn't to say the system works, because the system is fucking bullshit, but what are the fans going to do? The simple answer is nothing. The Yankees and Red Sox and Dodgers of the world make enough money to keep putting up insane money numbers while small market teams like Minnesota, St. Louis and Tampa Bay have to play window to window, praying that they get that right mix to win a title.

The MLB is broken and there is not fixing it, IMO. The salaries are far too out of whack now that they cannot afford it. The MLBPA is the most powerful union in the world, because the sport does not survive without baseball going. When the owners caved in 94 and 95 to have no salary cap, the entire sport because a huge fraud. What the Indians are doing is what every other small market team has to do. Look at Minnesota and Santana, San Diego and Peavy and other sort of deals. It's just the way baseball is, the rich get richer, the poor lose their talent.
 
The Indians would have been better off keeping Lee and Martinez

Jim Callis/Baseball America

Last summer, trading reigning Cy Young Award winner CC Sabathia was a no-brainer for the Indians. Cleveland had no chance of re-signing Sabathia once he hit free agency after the season, and it received a blue-chip, nearly ready prospect in Matt LaPorta to headline a four-player package from the Brewers.

The Tribe topped itself a few weeks later, turning another pending free agent (Casey Blake) into an elite catching prospect (Carlos Santana) when the Dodgers preferred to pay heavily in talent rather than assume Blake's remaining salary.

The Indians have built their recent contenders around youngsters acquired from trading veterans. Getting Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore from the Expos for Bartolo Colon remains the gold standard of prospect deals this decade. Cleveland also has traded for Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin-Soo Choo, Coco Crisp, Franklin Gutierrez, Travis Hafner and Jake Westbrook.

General manager Mark Shapiro executed all of those transactions, so he has proven that he's adept at making trades. But he should have resisted the impulse to deal another reigning Cy Young Award winner, Lee, and All-Star catcher Victor Martinez at this year's trade deadline.

Lee ($9 million) and Martinez ($7 million) both had very reasonable club options for 2010, and saving $16 million isn't going to make the Indians major players for offseason free agents and trades. The American League Central lacks anything close to a powerhouse, so Cleveland could have contended for a division title next year with Lee and Martinez.

And while it was a buyer's market, the Indians sent Lee to the Phillies and Martinez to the Red Sox without getting any of either club's premium young players. Philadelphia didn't want to give up pitchers Kyle Drabek and J.A. Happ or outfielders Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor in a Roy Halladay deal with the Blue Jays, and it didn't have to surrender any of them to Cleveland. Boston managed to hold on to pitchers Daniel Bard, Clay Buchholz, Casey Kelly and Junichi Tazawa.

The Indians did get several intriguing prospects in the two deals, but it remains to be seen if they got any cornerstones. Right-hander Jason Knapp, the Phillies' second-round pick in 2008, has a legitimate power arm -- but he's still raw, in low Class A and currently is sidelined by shoulder fatigue. Justin Masterson could be a No. 3 starter after he transitions back from relieving for the Red Sox. Few left-handers throw harder than Nick Hagadone, who's making an impressive comeback from Tommy John surgery, though he ultimately may be more of a reliever than a starter.

In addition to Knapp, Cleveland also added the Nos. 2-4 prospects on BA's preseason Phillies Top 10: right-hander Carlos Carrasco, catcher Lou Marson and shortstop Jason Donald. But all three have seen their stock slip during lackluster Triple-A seasons. Righty Bryan Price, the third player yielded for Martinez, has upside as a sinker/slider reliever yet lacks consistency.

The Indians need pitching help, and they added arms for the future at a much lower cost when they spun off Rafael Betancourt, Mark DeRosa and Ryan Garko earlier this season for prospects Scott Barnes, Connor Graham, Chris Perez and Jess Todd. They should have stopped there.

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_callis/08/04/trades.indians/index.html
 
Lee ($9 million) and Martinez ($7 million) both had very reasonable club options for 2010, and saving $16 million isn't going to make the Indians major players for offseason free agents and trades.

That's assuming the goal was to become players in free agency. In our case, the goal was to simply cut payroll.
 
The Indians would have been better off keeping Lee and Martinez

Jim Callis/Baseball America

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_callis/08/04/trades.indians/index.html


Lee ($9 million) and Martinez ($7 million) both had very reasonable club options for 2010, and saving $16 million isn't going to make the Indians major players for offseason free agents and trades. The American League Central lacks anything close to a powerhouse, so Cleveland could have contended for a division title next year with Lee and Martinez.

My take: 9 million and 7 million dollar options are good for teams that are a bigger market, competing for a playoff spot, and doesnt have a great farm system. We dont qualify for any of those. Also since when have we have been major players in the free-agent market? Last year we splurged but it was still not to the extent of calling it major. The only trades we really make are the ones that give us young prospects, because were small market. We cannot afford to spend millions in trades and signings.

And while it was a buyer's market, the Indians sent Lee to the Phillies and Martinez to the Red Sox without getting any of either club's premium young players. Philadelphia didn't want to give up pitchers Kyle Drabek and J.A. Happ or outfielders Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor in a Roy Halladay deal with the Blue Jays, and it didn't have to surrender any of them to Cleveland. Boston managed to hold on to pitchers Daniel Bard, Clay Buchholz, Casey Kelly and Junichi Tazawa.

My take: Classic. Yes, Cliff Lee won a Cy-Young but he is no Roy Hallady. He is leaving his prime and his value was not high enough for there 2 top pitching prospects. I guess he didnt bother to look at our minor league depth chart either, we are stacked in the outfield. We have 2 up coming premier players in Grady and Choo along with top prospects Nick Weglerz, Micheal Brantley, Matt LaPorta, Trevor Crowe, and Jordon Brown.

Same thing with Martinez. He is 32 years old and does not hold the same value as lets say, Joe Maur. Its not like we didnt get any top prospects in return, we got 2 guys in Masterson and Hagdone that are projected to be top of the order guys. Clay is looking great too.
 
I'm not sure if you know this but whenever a star player in the MLB gets traded 95% its for young prospects. Baseball is a totally different sport then football and basketball.

That's not because it's a "different spot", it's because MLB is a broken sport where most teams can't afford to keep their stars once they reach free-agency and if they walk, they get little in compensation. The team's that can afford them have little incentive to offer anything of value, because if they're willing to wait they can just get the player for what they would have paid him anyway.

Did Boston salary dump Manny Ramirez for prospects? Heck, no. They traded him for a younger player with proven ability in Jason Bay.

The teams aren't all playing by the same rules.
 
My take: Classic. Yes, Cliff Lee won a Cy-Young but he is no Roy Hallady.

And yet Lee is 2yrs younger and beat out Halladay for the Cy Young last year.

22-3 for a team a .500 team (.437 without Lee) is crazy good.

Guys like Ron Guidry and Doc Gooden put up their gaudy records on teams that won 90+ games.

When Gaylord Perry won the Cy Young for the Indians, he was 24-16. His team wasn't much worse without him then Lee's team was without him.
 
And yet Lee is 2yrs younger and beat out Halladay for the Cy Young last year.

22-3 for a team a .500 team (.437 without Lee) is crazy good.

Guys like Ron Guidry and Doc Gooden put up their gaudy records on teams that won 90+ games.

When Gaylord Perry won the Cy Young for the Indians, he was 24-16. His team wasn't much worse without him then Lee's team was without him.

Record is dependent on run support, which the pitcher has no control of. Cliff Lee was 7-9 with a 3.14 ERA this year, yet 14-8 with a 5.43 ERA in 2004. Not a big fan of using record to show the quality of a pitcher.

Anyway, Cliff Lee is somewhere in the top 10 starters in the majors, but Roy Halladay might be #1. Halladay has been doing this for 8 years now. Let's see Cliff pitch like this for 5 straight years, then we might be putting him in Halladay's class.
 
That's not because it's a "different spot", it's because MLB is a broken sport where most teams can't afford to keep their stars once they reach free-agency and if they walk, they get little in compensation. The team's that can afford them have little incentive to offer anything of value, because if they're willing to wait they can just get the player for what they would have paid him anyway.

Did Boston salary dump Manny Ramirez for prospects? Heck, no. They traded him for a younger player with proven ability in Jason Bay.

The teams aren't all playing by the same rules.


I do agree that the bigger markets don't play by the same rules but using the Manny trade is kind of odd considering how it happened. The trade with the Dodgers barley made the deadline and almost didn't happen. If the 3-team trade didn't happen, with all the prospects going to Pitt. Manny would have probably landed with the Marlins for a few prospects and the Bo-Sox paying millions for the Marlins to take him. As it turned out, if you look at the trade, it seems as if Pitt was a late player in this deal and the prospects that were given up for Manny were sent directly to Pitt by BOS with a few of their own added in for Bay.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/07/31/manny.sweepstakes/

The Dodgers, who appeared to be running second at best for days in the race for embattled superstar Manny Ramirez, pulled a last-minute shocker and acquired Ramirez just before Thursday's trade deadline from the Red Sox, who were determined to unload the unhappy slugger.

The Dodgers, who appeared to give up next to nothing in the three-team trade, quieted critics who doubted their ability to do deals while simultaneously catapulting themselves into a favorite's role in the bunched and sorry NL West with the deal that was first reported by SI.com.

The Red Sox received two-time All-Star outfielder Jason Bay from Pittsburgh in the trade, while the Pirates imported four prospects -- reliever Craig Hansen and outfielder Brandon Moss from Boston and third baseman Andy LaRoche and pitcher Bryan Morris from Los Angeles. The surprise trade was completed with minutes, or perhaps even seconds, to go before Thursday's 4 p.m. ET deadline, and wasn't announced until well after the deadline, taking many folks by surprise.

The Dodgers look like the big winner in the trade in that they surrendered no one who really fit into their immediate plans while acquiring one of the greatest hitters of his generation. Never mind that they were already overstocked with outfielders, including also Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier. Ramirez was also a winner in that he got the two $20 million team options, for 2009 and '10, dropped in return for his advance word that he would OK a trade anywhere. Ramirez will now be eligible to play the market as a free agent after the season.

The Red Sox lived with the mercurial Ramirez's odd antics for more than seven years, but things really deteriorated this year between superstar and team over the club options that seemed to torment Ramirez. He also was never completely comfortable in the fishbowl existence in baseball-crazed Boston.

The Red Sox spent most of the 24 hours before the trade deadline haggling with the Marlins, who seemed primed to pull of a stunner of their own. The team with the $22 million payroll appeared to be in position to bring the $20 million-a-year talent back home (he lives in Fort Lauderdale). The Red Sox were motivated enough to move Manny that they offered to pay the remaining $7 million on Ramirez's 2008 salary, and the Marlins, who have drafted well and possessed a stash of prospects, seemed prepared to do the big deal.

However, the Marlins balked at the inclusion of several of their better prospects, including power-hitting outfielder Mike Stanton and hard-throwing reliever Ryan Tucker. Then Florida really hindered its chances when it requested that Boston to kick in even a few million more, above and beyond Ramirez's $7 million salary, according to people familiar with the talks.


When the Marlins started to make things difficult, the Red Sox had very few other options. The Phillies were the third team to have expressed interest but they seemed concerned about how Ramirez and Pat Burrell, two left fielders by trade, would share an outfield, dooming their bid. That left the Dodgers as prime candidate to bail out Boston and take their disgruntled star.

The Red Sox went back and forth with the Marlins and Dodgers as Thursday's deadline approached, with SI.com reporting around 2:45 p.m. ET that the Dodgers were back in the discussions. There was skepticism that the Dodgers would be able to put together a deal on short notice. But they did just that.

"It was something that happened very quickly, obviously,'' Dodgers manager Joe Torre told the media out in L.A.

The Dodgers were only too happy to pick up the pieces, claiming an all time great for very little. LaRoche, the brother of Pirates first baseman Adam LaRoche, was hitting .203 in limited time with the Dodgers while Morris, just 21, was 2-4 with a 3.20 ERA in A-ball.

Torre, the iconic former Yankees manager who managed against Ramirez for seven straight years, is known to be a greater admirer of Ramirez. But word is that Dodgers owner Frank McCourt is just as great an admirer. McCourt, who already had shown a fondness for collecting anything connected to the Red Sox (Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Lowe, Bill Mueller, Grady Little are Red Sox who became Dodgers in McCourt's tenure), and Ramirez, a Red Sox legend, was right up McCourt's alley.

In earlier talks with the Dodgers, L.A. is believed to have offered young outfielder Ethier for Ramirez, with the Red Sox requesting the more talented Kemp. But sometime Thursday afternoon, the Dodgers changed their offer, pulling back Ethier and offering the prospects instead. It isn't known what precipitated the change, but time was running short and the Red Sox were running out of options.

Boston was still able to replace Ramirez with a former All-Star outfielder in Bay, who has resurrected his career this year after struggling all last year. His numbers -- 22 home runs, 64 RBIs and a .282 batting average -- are comparable to those of Ramirez (20, 69, .299), although Ramirez was playing at half-speed the past couple weeks as he started to growing increasingly upset about the possibility of having to play in Boston under the team's terms for two more years.

Bay is a solid if unspectacular player who's never played in a pennant race but replaces Ramirez in a very cost-effective way. Bay is making a relatively puny $5.75 million this year and will make a very reasonable $7.5 million next year. This is the fourth trade of Bay's career. Originally drafted by the Expos, he was dealt first to the Mets in 2002, then to the Padres later that summer, then again to the Pirates in 2003.

The deal made sense from the Pirates' standpoint as they are rebuilding for the future. They needed an inventory of young players, and combined with the trade of Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte to the Yankees, acquired eight young players for their system. The proposed deal with Florida, which would have netted them young outfielder Jeremy Hermida, made sense for them as well. The Pirates spoke to several other teams about Bay, including the Rays, Cardinals, Diamondbacks and Mets.

Ramirez joined the Red Sox with a $160 million contract before the 2001 season. He made the AL All-Star team in each of his eight years in Boston, posting six 30-homer seasons and six 100-RBI seasons in Boston while helping the Red Sox win two World Series titles. Ramirez was the 2004 World Series MVP when he batted .412 with one home run and four RBI as the Red Sox won their first World Series title since 1918.

Dealing such a productive and clutch player is a major risk, but some people in Boston believe the Red Sox finally reached their breaking point regarding Ramirez, who criticized upper management in recent days, came under fire for not playing the first game of a recent series against the rival Yankees, and appeared to not hustle on a couple of ground balls against the Angels in Fenway Park this week.

The Red Sox are 61-48, three games behind the first-place Rays in the AL East. The Dodgers are currently 54-53, in second place in the NL West, one game behind the front-running Diamondbacks. The Dodgers' offense has been underwhelming this season, ranking 13th in the NL with 449 runs scored. Ramirez, 36, is batting .299 with 20 homers and 68 RBIs this season. No player on the Dodgers currently has more than 12 homers or 60 RBIs.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/08/04/heyman.mannytrade/


When the Red Sox originally offered Manny Ramirez in trade to the other 29 teams, they went 0-for-29. Red Sox GM Theo Epstein made tens of calls and found no takers.

Things were looking bleak. Ramirez was apparently being viewed as an active, goofier version of Barry Bonds, an unwanted all-time great. At that point it appeared that the increasingly uneasy, unhappy marriage of the Red Sox and Ramirez might have to stay together for what would have been a messy final two to three months.

Then someone within baseball's best front office had an idea. The Red Sox, who had grown weary of Ramirez's antics and attitude and badly wanted him out of their clubhouse, decided to enhance their offer. When Epstein made his next round of calls, he was now offering to pay the remainder of Ramirez's $20 million 2008 salary. It was an unusual and unprecedented $7 million incentive for such a productive and vital player.

Despite that, only three teams showed even a modicum of interest: the Dodgers, Phillies and Marlins.

Ramirez, who never felt completely comfortable in baseball-crazed Boston's fishbowl existence, set the stage for a trade by signing an agreement in advance to go to whatever team agreed to drop his two $20 million club options, for 2009 and '10. Yet the field for a deal was oddly small.

Only three teams wanted him, and as it turns out only one of those three was willing to return enough to Boston to make it work. It didn't hurt that the one team happy to do the deal was run by a Bostonian, Frank McCourt, who makes it a hobby to collect ex-Red Sox players for his Dodgers. Sources say McCourt was extremely involved in this trade, and that he in fact was the driving force behind it: no surprise since he previously added ex-Red Sox Nomar Garciaparra, Derek Lowe, Bill Mueller and Grady Little.

But word was going around baseball that McCourt's Dodgers were difficult to deal with, that McCourt pulled back a trade for CC Sabathia, that the Dodgers had too many chiefs running the team and that they were too protective of every last youngster. One of many anti-Dodger columns was written here. But the Dodgers ultimately would prove me, as well as several others, wrong.

And by the way, it's a misconception that any team other than the Dodgers, Phillies and Marlins ever showed any interest. Neither the Mets nor anyone else wanted to deal.

As was presumably the case for many other teams, sources say that the Mets didn't want to risk bringing Ramirez and all his baggage into their clubhouse. But strangely, after the Mets had stood pat at the deadline, GM Omar Minaya suggested on a conference call that the reason they couldn't make a deal for Ramirez was that Boston had requested a big-league outfielder back. That claim must have come from Minaya's very vivid imagination and appears to have been an attempt to cover for the Mets or possibly refrain from exposing their true feelings about a Ramirez trade. In reality the Red Sox had called the Mets and were told no, and that was the end of that.

As we know now, the Dodgers ultimately didn't have to give up a big-league outfielder (or any sort of outfielder), and they still managed to get the deal done. It took until 3:59 p.m. ET on Thursday, one minute before the deadline, but the deal got done, and it enhanced the Dodgers' pennant hopes, relieved the Red Sox of their problem child and continued the rebuilding process for the depleted Pirates.

Red Sox people decided early on that the outfielder the Red Sox needed to get all along was coming from Pittsburgh. That was Jason Bay, a solid two-time All-Star. Boston realized early in the game that Bay was their best hope, and perhaps their only hope, to replace Ramirez's bat in their lineup. There may have been early flirtations with Atlanta regarding Mark Teixeira and Colorado about Matt Holliday, but those two superstars would have cost them way too much in terms of prospects and major leaguers.

Bay isn't nearly the same hitter as Ramirez, but he was as close as Epstein could come in this trade market. And what's more, Bay's reasonable contract ran another year for a well-under-market $7.5 million (he's probably worth twice that, making Boston feel better about paying the remainder of Ramirez's 2008 salary). So for giving away two months of a disgruntled Ramirez, Epstein got back at least eight months of a committed and eager Bay. That was something he could live with.

But, in order to get Bay, Epstein would have to get what Pittsburgh sought. He had three chances to do it: the Dodgers, Phillies and Marlins.

The Red Sox agreed to send Pittsburgh reliever Craig Hansen, a potential closer and solid young outfielder Brandon Moss. Then they went looking for the rest of the package.

Several days before the deadline the Red Sox first requested Matt Kemp from Los Angeles, a seemingly reasonable proposition considering that the ultra-talented Kemp was known to be frustrating some of his bosses, including manager Joe Torre, with his inconsistent play and baffling baserunning.

The Dodgers said no.

The Red Sox lowered their request to a combination of young outfielder Andre Ethier and third-base prospect Andy LaRoche. Considering L.A.'s excess of outfielders and LaRoche's falling stock, that seemed more reasonable.

The Dodgers still said no.

The Dodgers still were showing interest early in the week. But by Wednesday the Red Sox turned their attention to the Phillies and Marlins, leaving L.A. wondering whether it was now out.


The Phillies were a team said to excite Ramirez. They have a great lineup and an even better ballpark for him to put up big second-half numbers and enhance his free-agent value. The Phillies had interest but were apparently offering even less than L.A. They may have had concerns about how Ramirez would fit into the same outfield with Pat Burrell.

The low-budget Marlins were up next. They appeared to be sensing a kill, so they tried for a killer deal. Jeremy Hermida was one name talked about. Gaby Hernandez was another, but Hernandez went to Seattle for reliever Arthur Rhodes.

Slugging outfield prospect Mike Stanton would not be included by the Marlins. Other decent prospects would not be included either. Plus the Marlins wanted Boston to not only pay Ramirez's $7 million salary but also to ship them $2 million more to cover the draft choices they'd get when they let Ramirez leave as a free agent after the year. So in other words Florida wanted Boston to pay for three of its players for accepting the Cooperstown-bound Ramirez.

A lot of possible scenarios were discussed for days with Florida. But there never was an agreement on players and dollars.


The Marlins "overplayed their hand,'' in the words of one person familiar with the dealings.

So sometime on deadline day the Red Sox went back to the Dodgers. At that point some Red Sox people remained skeptical that the Dodgers would relent or ever be reasonable. There were different points on deadline day where they began to doubt that they would trade the player they were determined to trade.

The Red Sox requested struggling shortstop prospect Chin-lung Hu (.159 average in 107 major league at-bats this season) but were told that he was on L.A.'s untouchable list. At that point Boston people understandably began to wonder whether the Dodgers would be any easier to deal with than Florida.

The Pirates were also driving a hard bargain. Their new GM, Neal Huntington, had gotten slammed in the media for his Yankees deal involving Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte (in baseball circles it was somewhat better received), and the Red Sox sensed that Huntington was determined to get a haul for Bay.

At one point, after the haggling with the Marlins and Dodgers appeared to be going nowhere, the Red Sox became frustrated enough to talk to Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, about the viability of keeping Manny. Boras told them what they suspected all along, that he'd be much happier to stay if the option years were dropped. That appeared to have reinforced Boston's long-understood belief that Ramirez was too distracted by the contract to perform for them.

Boston's players and staff showed no real interest in keeping Manny around, anyway. One landmark moment came when Ramirez complained of knee pain but couldn't recall which knee was hurting him. Red Sox doctors had to take the unusual step of evaluating both the right and left knee in an MRI exam. Neither showed any damage, furthering Boston's suspicion that Ramirez's real problem wasn't physical.

Eventually, Boston got L.A. to agree to sign off on LaRoche, one player that the Pirates sought. (They already had LaRoche's brother Adam.) But the Pirates wanted more. They gave a list of names to the Red Sox to present to the Dodgers.

With the clock ticking (it was actually 3:59 by this point), the Dodgers agreed to pick one of those names, Class-A pitcher Bryan Morris, and include him with LaRoche. The deal was done, and Manny was a Dodger. The Dodgers agreed to pay a $1 million bonus to Ramirez as stipulated in the $160-million Red Sox contract that he grew to hate (technically, it was now called a roster bonus instead of an assignment bonus).

But that money was made up by the Dodgers within hours. Thirty thousand walkup tickets were sold within 24 hours of the trade, and 300 rest-of-season tickets were sold. Manny Mania was taking off in L.A.

The Red Sox were determined to move Ramirez once he showed that his main interest was getting the $20 million club options removed. Epstein's big goal was to get a reasonable replacement, that being Bay, and he did that. But there wasn't real celebrating in Boston. They didn't want to have to trade Ramirez; rather they felt they had to.

The Red Sox did well to get seven-plus years out of Ramirez, along with two World Series rings, then replace him with a reasonable player. Ramirez is a big loss to the defending World Series champions. But no one inside their clubhouse voiced one word of objection to the deal. Bay was welcomed in, and Boston went back to business, sweeping the A's at home over the weekend with Bay off to a fast start playing his first meaningful games in his new, tough town.

Eventually, Ramirez left the Red Sox little choice through his self-centered actions and words over the past few weeks. The celebrating was being done in Los Angeles, where the Dodgers capitalized on Boston's misfortune. Now Ramirez is threatening to lead an L.A. revival. He has begun with eight hits, including two homers, in his first 13 at-bats. The game is easy for him when he's trying.

More celebrating was being done by Ramirez, whose misbehavior will probably make him millions. Ramirez was thrilled to be in more laid-back L.A., dreaming of free agency to come.

If you go over the way this worked out it sounds like the Bo-Sox got prospects from the Dodgers that Pitt wanted to work the deal for Bay after the Manny deal had been agreed upon and the Bo-Sox were only going to agree to prospects that the Pirates sought. So in sense Manny did get unloaded for prospects and these prospects were in turn sent directly to Pitt for Bay with out ever reporting to the Bo-Sox.

If you really want to use trades that can be compared then you would have to take teams in the lower half of pay roll for the MLB. Using the top spenders in a rigged game is like rigging your argument because these top teams can actually afford to pay their players since money isn't an obstacle. Which IMO is the biggest issue with the game today, bigger the PED's.

You would want to look at trades made by the teams in the bottom 15 of league payroll, minus the Marlins because their scouting is probably the best in the game. You would want to look at the deals made by those 15 teams in the lower half of the payroll adn what they tend to get back for their top tier players. Then you would want to compare what those teams got against what teh Tribe received in their deals this deadline.
 
That's not because it's a "different spot", it's because MLB is a broken sport where most teams can't afford to keep their stars once they reach free-agency and if they walk, they get little in compensation. The team's that can afford them have little incentive to offer anything of value, because if they're willing to wait they can just get the player for what they would have paid him anyway.

Did Boston salary dump Manny Ramirez for prospects? Heck, no. They traded him for a younger player with proven ability in Jason Bay.

The teams aren't all playing by the same rules.

Notice is said 95% for a reason. Boston trading Manny was something you dont see everyday in baseball. Usually when a trades there best player there not in position to be competing for the world series. Boston HAD to acquire someone who could step in right away.

You gave one example of a team trading for a star for a proven veteran baseball player, yet they still got young prospects in return. I'm trying to think of other occasions but nothing is ringing a bell. Truth is, trades in baseball are different then football and sometimes basketball,
 
How can anyone argue that the Red Sox came out on top in the Manny deal?

They gave up prospects and Manny to acquire a lesser talented player in Jason Bay.

This is the model we should have followed?

I'll take my chances with a boatload of prospects, especially if a proven player would have only marginally helped in getting us to compete right now.
 

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