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Interesting Stat

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From boxing to tennis to basketball, coaches and scouts alike compare a person's style to his or her personality. Let's examine a tennis player. Imagine he is 6'4, hits a big serve upwards of 130 mph, has solid hands at net and is a good athlete. Logically, we would expect and even encourage that player to develop into a serve-and-volley player. Hit the bomb of a serve, charge the net and end the point quickly. But every now and then, you have people not always consciously rebelling against textbook logic in an openly defiant type of manner; such as saying, "I'm going to do the opposite just because I feel like it." You have to realize style is a personal thing. Playing style is often a reflection of personality. What if that same 6'4 tennis player developed into an all-courter? Yeah he charges the net, but he's a far cry from the serve-and-volley player you hoped for and often hangs back on the baseline, becoming a retreiver and baseliner - i.e., not always exploiting his size or power. Is that player a failure? A disappointment? Not necessarily. Theory in any sport is good because it gives us a frame of reference in which to expect, predict and organize strategy, talent and events. Tying my example to basketball, suppose you have a diamond in the rough player. He's like LeBron or Kevin. He does a little bit of everything well. Do you plug this talent into a system of defined play and roles? Is a player of that all-around skill set a "type" of player, or more simply a "player" without definition? Suppose LeBron James goes to the paint. Thus LeBron neglects the perimeter aspect of the game which he so loves. Is LeBron a great back-to-the-basket player? Not really. He can score down there occasionally but to become a full-time post player, major work would be needed to polish his low post moves. Guys like LeBron remind me of guys I see in boxing, tennis and basketball. You simply are going to have to live with it. LeBron is high, middle and low; he's everywhere on the court. Telling him to focus on any ONE place of the court (arc, paint, high post) would run the risk of breaking his focus and making him become mentally stale. LeBron's game is about freedom, any restriction on that freedom risks significant mental impact. In closing, much like Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett, LeBron's game flows with theory yet clashes with theory at the same time. While I am normally all for theory and staying inbounds, if any player is ever going to change general basketball theory, it'd be a player of the talent and skill set of LeBron James. That said, I believe LeBron should be able to continue exploring his style of play for the time being. I have this argument with my grandfather all the time (yes, he's a big sports fan). He believes in the status quo of intellectual and sports thinking - textbook rules and all things following theory. As for me, when it comes to those who are exceptional and may be the exception to the rule, I'm all for that person being able to honestly express his talent/game. LeBron shooting perimeter jumpshots is not the problem to me. He only needs to occasionally pick and choose his spots better. If my grandfather saw this thread, he'd probably agree because he thinks there is only one way of doing things and one way to the truth. As for me, I think you have infinite ways to play effective basketball inside and outside of modern theory. It reminds me of the Phoenix Suns. People would said before last year, "That style only works in Europe and won't work here." I just wish people would sometimes expand their minds and give things a chance. Maybe in the long run, 5 years from now, if this thread could still be found, bump it and say "West Remy, you were wrong. LBJ should have become a post player." But honestly right now, I can say with all my heart that LeBron is an all-courter. And he needs to polish and continue to improve but we should embrace his game for what it is and what it isn't and not try to will/force it into what it's not.
 
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As far as LeBron in the post...My thoughts on it is not for Scoring purposes.. It's more of a diversion to get others involved...

He is a pretty good passer out of the post... If one of our damn big men would cut to the damn hoop, it would look so much better..

I like LeBron in the post for 2 reasons... He can get his shot off easily and score, but, he sets his teammates up well out of it...

Whether it's the behind the back pass in the paint, or the cross court pass (when double teamed) which could lead to to a three, or get the ball movement started with swing passes to find the open shooter...
 
I understand the logic. LeBron often looks brillant in the post both scoring and passing the ball. You occasionally see moments of brillance from him and wonder, "why not do that all the time?" The tricky thing is to be able to consistently pull that off day in and day out. This idea seems like an experiment to me. Unless LeBron can not only do it but also do it very well, there would be a learning curve. This almost seems more like an idea of something James should work in the upcoming offseason. Changing our offense to a high post offense with James in the high post would remind me of the Sacramento Kings. Could we run a motion offense not just on a few plays but everytime out and expect to win games? Not only does that require the right personnel down to the wire, but also the right offensive coaches spearheading the effort.
 
In no way do I want them "to do it all the time"... But, if you look at the two best perimeter stars in the game (MAC, KB8)... They get in the post at least 5 or 6 times a quarter... This is not too much to ask of a non post player... Especially one of such size/speed/and vision...

Now with that comes tweaking a few things in the offense... "Motion offense" ? Perhaps, but not a true "motion offense" since it's not our big men involved in the passing...

Now if we could get Drew cutting to the basket since he has some speed that would be the real treat...And would add a whole other element... And don't get me started about a catch-and-shoot player working off a screen... LeBron could have a field day...

I would also like to see Larry and Damon on the same side of the floor with that style... Because of Larry's driving ability, Damon's man will flood in on him 9-10 times... It leaves Damon open all night... (It happened down the stretch tonight)

That was really exposed tonight for a positive... And of course, it's not all about Driving and kicking, you need to finish as well on the drives...

But I feel if we can change a couple things up with schemes, and play to strengths of all our players (and not just LeBron) we could stay competitve longer...

I think alot of that is changing the way you use LeBron in the offense.. If you can quietly find away to limit some of his contested poor jumpers from deep, it allows for a better flowing offense that can be a little more successful in the end..

I personally feel, a couple more post plays, can eliminate those jumpers...

But the same holds true for Larry, the only thing is, Larry does not put them up in the same volume as LeBron...
 
If Kobe and TMac get into the post so much, why is it that LeBron shoots far more from the inside than they do?
 
C'mon Lj4mvp...Kobe gets in the post, and has the exact same post moves of Jordan... His turnaround jumper is a beauty, and it's one of his strengths..

T- Mac's is not as smooth, but he uses that as well...They take the most turn around jumpers in the game from the perimeter position.. But I said they get in it 5 or 6 times per quarter... That is not too much..

LeBron gets in the post, and will face up and drive (which is fine as long as he driving)... I would also like to have him the post to set up others... He commands the double team which allows for open jumpers, better spacing and ball movement...

Hell, Parker is the number one paint scorer and he's a PG...

LeBron should be number 1 by a wide margin... He's a beast.. Nothing like him..
 
I just think you overstate how often Kobe or TMac actually post up.
 
Nope... Especially Bryant, he is a key component to the triangle, which is all about the post.... He will post up at least 25 times a night..

T-Mac depends on what's going on around him... They try to establish Ming early like we do Z :rolleyes: ...But Mac is usually in the post in the beginning, and they use him on the perimeter at the end of games...

I think you're taking it wrong... I'm not saying those guys along with 'Bron are posting up offensively for that purpose in terms of themselves and getting shots off..

It's about setting up the others as well...
 
what is it accomplishing then? It's not getting them more inside shots, it's not making them more effective at scoring from the inside, and it's not getting them more assists.
 
LJ4MVP said:
what is it accomplishing then? It's not getting them more inside shots, it's not making them more effective at scoring from the inside, and it's not getting them more assists.
What the hell has this offense accomplished ? What have we done with this offense that leads you to beleive we are making strides and can compete with the likes of the teams we will need to compete with when we start are journey for a championship ?

It doesn't even resemble a offense that could go to the playoffs, mush less an offense that can do damage...

You're ignoring the fact that the offense in the post not only eliminates potential LeBron poor outside shots..But, like I said, it gets the others involved... It gets the ball movement to increase, it allows for better spacing...It helps everybody out.

I am not accusing you of being a "stat guy," but who cares if LeBron is getting the assist ? If his initial pass outta the post goes to Hughes at the top of the key, which eventually gets Damon an open look in the corner and Hughes gets the assist, I could careless...

It's more about the "little things" that takes teams to the next level..

The extra pass, the defensive rotation, just little things like that seperate the average teams to the great teams...

Making the simple pass, executing the offense to perfection and just playing smart ball...

Watching LeBron dance with the ball at the top of the key will get us exactly where we have been for 8 years when playoff time rolls around...

Making LeBron a playmaker will make us so much better...
 
My thing is, Lebron doesn't make his team mates better. You can actually make an arguement that he makes them worse. He pretty much refuses to run the offense.

The Cavs offense this year is give Lebron the ball on the perimeter and try to create something. More often than not, that would be a turn around/fade away base line jumper, a three ball, or a step back J. All three of which are horrible shots.

People dont respect his shot, he can jack it all day, look at the games, players let him, they want him to take it. Now when he gets within 15 feet, he is defended tight. But part of being a great player is being able to get the shot you want, and that is getting to the hoop.

I would much rather have Lebron work on his post moves than this three ball, like lepipp said, Bron needs to post up to be effective in this offense. Better shots and more oppurtunities for his team mates.

Ill finish this later, i gotta goto work.
 
It's all about balance and change ups. Firstlyyou have to run an offense which James is comfortable in. So we need to run some iso plays and set some picks on the perimeter. But for that to be fully effective he needs to run some plays off the ball like setting the picks for fades and rolls. Of these he can find post position for some offense to be run that way. We just dont want him to find his position in the post and wait for an inlet like a center. We need him to be playing as close to possible his natural game. His game right now is from the perimeter initially. Escape that and you will see numerous errors. Give it time. Let him develop this slowly.
 
show me one wing player who gets to the basket for more than 41% of his shots or who shoots better than .694 on those shots.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05CLE7A.HTM

There are things called balance and spacing. You can't take it inside every play, teams will pack it in. Just like in football teams will run to establish the pass, in basketball, hitting the outside shot will establish the penetration. Look at the progression in LeBron's jump shooting and his overall eFG%

Year Jump Overall
03-04 .356 .439
04-05 .396 .505
05-06 .420 .531

It's no coincidence that lebron has dramatically increased his percentage of inside shots since his jump shooting has improved.
 
I would say he is the best finisher in the league right now, so if he gets penetration (without getting called for traveling or carrying) then hes pretty much going to score or get fouled 90% of the time if he chooses to shoot. Sometimes he chooses to pass and that gets him in trouble because guys like Alan Henderson just arent expecting him to pass off penetration, especially if your name is Alan Henderson.

Anyway, the perimeter shot was something Lebron needed to add to his game to open up the penetration. If he couldn't shoot from beyong 15 feet, everyone would just sag off the guy and it would be fine. His post game needs some more work, so he cant just camp in there just yet.

I do agree with the original post that he shoots the outside shot (not just 3's but those long 2's too) way too much, but if you look at the percentages, hes making a decent (34%) clip on his 3s. If you eliminate the dumb fadeaway 3's then hes probably up to around 40%, which means its definately a shot worth taking at the right time.
 
This thread is painful seeing as we don't even have offensive sets. Our ball movement flat out sucks. Lebron has to trust his mates more, and that has to start with Larry Hughes. The least Lebron should be doing is playing 2-man with Larry after establishing Z in the post, end of story.

If Larry doesn't get hold of this thing now, Lebron will keep jacking up jumpers because there really aren't many other options.
 

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