Jared from Subway's house is currently being raided by the FBI...

[Tornicade]

There are plenty of studies out there that I remember reading in school that make a compelling case that humans aren't emotionally/mentally developed until around 28, not 18. You can just people watch for a few hours and come to the same conclusion. So no, I don't think a 16 year old girl is mentally capable of making a responsible decision to be a hooker. But it's way different than child porn. A 16 year old can consent to sex, whether it's a good idea or not is irrelevant to whether they are capable of consenting. A 10 year old not so much.

So I agree with both Lee and gour, even though that kind of creates a conflict. who really gives a shit if he had sex with a 16 year old because it wasn't rape (yes it was taking advantage and creepy, and most likely ethically wrong, but it wasn't rape). as long as the child porn thing isn't true I don't think he should be prosecuted.

You could have all the studies you want but i agree with gouri. regardless of whether a scientist saying they shouldnt make these decisions. they are making these decisions and will oconitnue to do so whether its with people their own age or older people. Im also curious how many 28 year old virgins they found for this study becuase I would think the maturity and development would come from experience making bad/good decisions on these matter

 

[Cassity14]

My daughter will be 14 years old in February, so I'm not coming at this from a predatory standpoint - I'm coming at it from a realistic, pragmatic, and experienced standpoint.

When my daughter is 16, she needs to be mature enough to understand sexuality and make decisions and if she's not then that's a problem.

What I've discussed with her mother, and her mother is on the same page, is that if she makes decisions to have sex - all we ask is that she's safe, and understanding of that fact that we will do everything we can to be understanding and supportive.

We've told our daughter that abstinence is complete bullshit, and that sexuality is a natural and progressive part of any relationship. But that sexuality is something to be reserved in youth and practiced with care in adulthood.

There does not need to be secrets, pregnancies (what happened with her mother and I when her mother was 16), etc. Were we mature enough to make decisions about child bearing at that age? No, of course not. But the point that's being missed is that we were having sex regardless, and no law was going to stop that.

So the question becomes, at what age does the state step in and declare, this person is so young that we should criminalize intercourse. And personally, I think 16 is a reasonable cutoff. That doesn't mean a 15 year old can't make an intelligent decision, but it means that the state can exercise the right to step in in situations that are one-sided and without consent. That's really what this needs to be about. Consent.

And to say, well, this person isn't wise enough, or mature enough to do x,y or z with their body - that can be extended to many things other than sex; including abortions, contraceptive, medical decisions, etc.

Beyond that, I'm not sure the last time you were clubbing, or in a bar, or generally just cruising for ass, but real talk, it's not difficult to end up in bed with a girl you met in a bar (a bar that cards), and she says (after sex) "umm, yeah, I'm 18." That's happened to me - more than once, and to say, well, what if she was 17 and she's just lying - she lied to get into the bar - now I'm looking at going on a sex registry? What kind of sense does this make?

I just think these laws are questionable at best, and really need to focus on the ability to consent to having intercourse, and having some bare minimum age where society deems a person to be too young to legally participate. Again, like others have said, I think 16 is a reasonable age of sexual and personal maturity such that if this person has sex with someone, that someone shouldn't be hauled off to prison as a "rapist."

I bolded the part that I think is the central pillar of the debate that arose here. Kids fuck around because they're curious and intrigued at all of the new shit their body can do and all of the cool shit they can do to other people's bodies. There's no denying that. It really is on parents and proper authoritative figures (health teachers for example) to educate effectively and help kids understand physical facts about their anatomy that, in most cases, they are undeniably going to use. They either are informed ahead of time (prevention), or get into situations they never even considered or thought possible.

If a boy and girl were only taught abstinence, but followed their instincts anyway and ended up pregnant, with a UTI, etc. the blame is far from theirs alone, IMO.

If a girl and boy know about the many forms of birth control and healthy sexual habits such as urinating (in the toilet) after sex, and choose to ignore these things, then the blame becomes mostly, if not all of theirs.

I do not agree that a young girl (or boy, especially) is mature enough or mentally developed enough at the age of 16 to properly assess the ramifications of something like selling his or her body for sex, medical practices, etc. Science shows that our brain is developing until at least age 21.

Ultimately, I think a lot of this circles back to the idea of whether or not we should make laws to protect us from ourselves. I use those terms referring to humans in general and what we've learned about our development, function, instincts, etc.

The reason I don't support something like prostitution taking place among that age group is the same reason that hospitals make sure parents are the ones signing off on any medical decisions regarding a minor: I don't think said minors can fully process the decision that they are making in such a climate.

I tend to agree with @David. in that prostitution should be up to the individual selling their body, but I don't trust a child to make that decision for his or her self. The other issue with prostitution is that many of those women are being forced by the trade into doing something they have no desire to do. Now, would allowing it as a legal practice fix some of that? Maybe. That's a different discussion.

When we starting doing things for the first time, we have to process what we're doing, who we're doing it with, and all of the things that come with it. That can be sex, that can be playing a sport, that can be a new job, you name it.

Asking someone, in a position like what I described above, to then make a decision about doing something like as a profession adds an entirely new layer of process that the individual likely isn't ready for. On top of that, we're talking about human beings without fully developed brains to use to make said decision.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Those text were from 2008 and the woman was having sex with Jared. she then apparently complained at some point to Subway about the text.. im sorry once someone enters enter a relationship someone they work with then its no longer an HR concern in my opinion. If she had legitimate concerns or disgust she would of taken it to the police

also this woman had concerns about the nature of their relationship after not before or during.

also in the transcripts notice the lady was incredulous not about Jared paying for sex but that he got such a great "deal"


This woman is just as disgusting as Fogle.

She was a sixteen year old prostitute at one point in her life. Did you really expect her to be some amazing and balanced human being? You don't become a hooker at sixteen unless your life is really fucked up.

 

[Tornicade]

She was a sixteen year old prostitute at one point in her life. Did you really expect her to be some amazing and balanced human being? You don't become a hooker at sixteen unless your life is really fucked up.

The woman who received the text was a grown woman who was a franchisee for subway. The concerns she had about Jared interest .
The 16 year old prostitue was a conversation in passing of a young lady at the time who has not been named or substantiated the text.

This woman could of shut down the cousin talk and we only see a mere fraction of what other conversations they
had on the matter.
so the post you referenced as not about a 16 year old prostitute but a grown woman who franchised a subway

 

[Jack Brickman]

The woman who received the text was a grown woman who was a franchisee for subway. The concerns she had about Jared interest .
The 16 year old prostitue was a conversation in passing of a young lady at the time who has not been named or substantiated the text.

This woman could of shut down the cousin talk and we only see a mere fraction of what other conversations they
had on the matter.
so the post you referenced as not about a 16 year old prostitute but a grown woman who franchised a subway

Ah...my bad. I haven't really been following the story (outside of reading this topic), and with the way you type it's hard to tell what the hell you're talking about sometimes.

 

[gourimoko]

I bolded the part that I think is the central pillar of the debate that arose here. Kids fuck around because they're curious and intrigued at all of the new shit their body can do and all of the cool shit they can do to other people's bodies. There's no denying that. It really is on parents and proper authoritative figures (health teachers for example) to educate effectively and help kids understand physical facts about their anatomy that, in most cases, they are undeniably going to use. They either are informed ahead of time (prevention), or get into situations they never even considered or thought possible.

If a boy and girl were only taught abstinence, but followed their instincts anyway and ended up pregnant, with a UTI, etc. the blame is far from theirs alone, IMO.

If a girl and boy know about the many forms of birth control and healthy sexual habits such as urinating (in the toilet) after sex, and choose to ignore these things, then the blame becomes mostly, if not all of theirs.

I do not agree that a young girl (or boy, especially) is mature enough or mentally developed enough at the age of 16 to properly assess the ramifications of something like selling his or her body for sex, medical practices, etc. Science shows that our brain is developing until at least age 21.

Ultimately, I think a lot of this circles back to the idea of whether or not we should make laws to protect us from ourselves. I use those terms referring to humans in general and what we've learned about our development, function, instincts, etc.

The reason I don't support something like prostitution taking place among that age group is the same reason that hospitals make sure parents are the ones signing off on any medical decisions regarding a minor: I don't think said minors can fully process the decision that they are making in such a climate.

I tend to agree with @David. in that prostitution should be up to the individual selling their body, but I don't trust a child to make that decision for his or her self. The other issue with prostitution is that many of those women are being forced by the trade into doing something they have no desire to do. Now, would allowing it as a legal practice fix some of that? Maybe. That's a different discussion.

When we starting doing things for the first time, we have to process what we're doing, who we're doing it with, and all of the things that come with it. That can be sex, that can be playing a sport, that can be a new job, you name it.

Asking someone, in a position like what I described above, to then make a decision about doing something like as a profession adds an entirely new layer of process that the individual likely isn't ready for. On top of that, we're talking about human beings without fully developed brains to use to make said decision.

I like this post because it's well thought out and a I agree with some of the conclusions here, but I wanted to point out some misconceptions that are in this thread.

1) It was said that a 16-year old can't "buy a car," that's absurd. I think people are confusing "the age of majority," or the age to enter into a legal contract with an age of owning property. There is no minimum age to own a car, or even a house. There is a minimum age to enter a contract, and those are different things. For example, you can buy a house via a Quit-Claim Deed at any age. I bought a house in the hood for $5,000 using my EITC refund when I was 22 and have rented it out for the past ten years. There is no age-limit, credit, contract, etc. It's simply a transference of property between two consenting parties.

2) It was said (in the post above) that hospitals require parents to sign-off on medical decisions for children; but this state law, and in California for example, this is not the case - in fact, the opposite is true. Children (i.e., minors) can consent, on their own, to have certain medical procedures without their parents knowledge let alone consent; particularly with respect to having an abortion. I agree with this, in that, many 16 and 17 year old's wait too long to have an abortion because they are scared of what their parents will do if they find out, only to end up in their second or third trimester and no longer able to get an abortion either due to cost or state limits.


3) It has been said that 16-year old don't have the "maturity" to understand or consent to sex, but no one has attempted to explain what exactly this argument means. A 17-year old in Ohio can walk into a gun show and buy a rifle, thus, having the power to determine who lives and who dies. A 17-year old in America can join the military on their 17th birthday with parental consent yes, but this means a 17-year old can be enlisted to serve, but not have sex?

I just think the logic of the argument of these age of consent laws really needs to be presented for it to make some sense to me. I just can't conceptualize a 16-year old male not understanding sex so much so that if a 19-year old girl were to have sex with him that we as a society would consider him a victim of rape. Rape. And that the 19-year old female would be charged with a felony, imprisoned, and placed on a sex offender's list.

Lastly, regarding prostitution. I think laws against prostitution make absolutely no logical or legal sense whatsoever. I read people saying "well of course there shouldn't be prostitution," but why? Can we articulate why prostitution should be criminalized and how this obvious violation of personal liberty somehow protects and benefits society so much so that it warrants such laws?

 

[gourimoko]

There are plenty of studies out there that I remember reading in school that make a compelling case that humans aren't emotionally/mentally developed until around 28, not 18. You can just people watch for a few hours and come to the same conclusion. So no, I don't think a 16 year old girl is mentally capable of making a responsible decision to be a hooker. But it's way different than child porn. A 16 year old can consent to sex, whether it's a good idea or not is irrelevant to whether they are capable of consenting. A 10 year old not so much.

So I agree with both Lee and gour, even though that kind of creates a conflict. who really gives a shit if he had sex with a 16 year old because it wasn't rape (yes it was taking advantage and creepy, and most likely ethically wrong, but it wasn't rape). as long as the child porn thing isn't true I don't think he should be prosecuted.

I actually agree with everything here..

My problem is with the criminalization of sex with minors through the rape statutes.

A woman who is 18 or 19-years old is not "raping" a "child" or a "boy" who is 16. If folks think a 16-year year old guy is being raped after he seduces a 19-year old college student, well, I dunno what to tell you. I guess I've been raped more times than I originally thought.

And just for reference, when I was 17, my girlfriend was 22 (this is prior to meeting my baby momma). She was a stripper I met at my friend's 21st birthday party. She knew I was 17, but since I lived on my own (since I was 16), had my own car, a job, and was as much a grown man (more so) than anybody she had ever dated, she dated me. I went after her - not the other way round. To say she was "raping" me, or that I couldn't consent to sex, is absurd.

Yes I was a stupid kid at the time, but I wasn't so stupid as to not realize what I was doing. I just wasn't wise enough to realize she was not really a worthwhile person to be with. Either way, that's life, and it's not the job of the State to prevent me from such life lessons. Neither of us regret what we were doing, and we became friends later in life.

That's why I say these laws are not reflective of reality, but instead, of the moral, ethical, and frankly chauvinistic male-oriented viewpoints of those in a position to pass them. And I bring gender into it because in my experience there is a massive double-standard when we actually discuss these statutory rape laws, so I think ignoring that point is a problem.

 

[Stark]

The Wolf of Wall Street is loosely based off of David's life.

 

[David.]

Again, the younger half is frequently the aggressor.

The two young girls I've been with chased me. one lied about her age. One has time and time again manipulated situations to keep me involved. you forget17 year olds are trained to get what they want,not do the right thing and are more likely than not having their social skills sharpened by climbing social rungs in high school.

The girl understood money,marketing and sex well enough to post an advertisement incorporating all three and was successful, but she's the victim and was taken advantage of

Not bad. $100 bucks in a half hour of work is approaching attorney level income, and she's16.


If the girls I know were a year younger I'd be in prison,sodomized and killed after being publicly annihilated for being a predator which couldn't be any further from tee truth.

BTW girls develop a lot quicker than guys, emotionally and socially. but the double standard and "protective laws" suggests anything but.

 

[Tornicade]

Prostituion laws are a part of a social reform movement in the 19th century with the idea that prostitution was a social disease that could be abolished or "cured" it blamed prostitution for crime, disease and other society ills.

in 2012 the supreme court ruled louisiana laws against compensation for oral and sodomy as unconstitutional. Many cities before then had "red " light districts where prostitution was legal.

I doubt those laws will last for much longer. I give it 50 years at the most.

 

[Deezus]

I'll just leave this here...

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/19-year-spend-25-years-sex-offender-registry-32797718

 

[Tornicade]

I actually agree with everything here..

My problem is with the criminalization of sex with minors through the rape statutes.

A woman who is 18 or 19-years old is not "raping" a "child" or a "boy" who is 16. If folks think a 16-year year old guy is being raped after he seduces a 19-year old college student, well, I dunno what to tell you. I guess I've been raped more times than I originally thought.

And just for reference, when I was 17, my girlfriend was 22 (this is prior to meeting my baby momma). She was a stripper I met at my friend's 21st birthday party. She knew I was 17, but since I lived on my own (since I was 16), had my own car, a job, and was as much a grown man (more so) than anybody she had ever dated, she dated me. I went after her - not the other way round. To say she was "raping" me, or that I couldn't consent to sex, is absurd.

Yes I was a stupid kid at the time, but I wasn't so stupid as to not realize what I was doing. I just wasn't wise enough to realize she was not really a worthwhile person to be with. Either way, that's life, and it's not the job of the State to prevent me from such life lessons. Neither of us regret what we were doing, and we became friends later in life.

That's why I say these laws are not reflective of reality, but instead, of the moral, ethical, and frankly chauvinistic male-oriented viewpoints of those in a position to pass them. And I bring gender into it because in my experience there is a massive double-standard when we actually discuss these statutory rape laws, so I think ignoring that point is a problem.

I have a theory that grown adults who made what they perceived as mistakes in regards to decisions made while a teenager like to blame society as oppose to take responsibility(blame) for their decisions and others that the idea of them going against their parents wishes is so foreign to them they cant comprehend teenagers making decisions against their parents wishes.

some of us however remember our younger versions and realize there was some mistakes that we had to make ourselves for the message to really sink in.

American Beauty is a great example of decisions an adult has to make. Although he didnt care about his daughters friends age which was presented as not moral, he passed on the opportunity when he discovered she was a virgin because he felt himself as a predator. Had she not been a virgin he would of been more than happy to sample the goods because he didnt feel he was taking anything away from her. The girl meanwhile was looking for a mature man as opposed to a boy her age.

the point is educating children and in extension adults regarding the impact is by far afar a more effective deterrent than a law of this nature.
Quite frankly arresting college kids for having sex with minors at an age that the minors are already engaging in sex with other minors is absurd. If they really wanted to protect teenagers from sex they would make it illegal for both participants and have both parties have the same punishment.

 

[gourimoko]

I have a theory that grown adults who made what they perceived as mistakes in regards to decisions made while a teenager like to blame society as oppose to take responsibility(blame) for their decisions and others that the idea of them going against their parents wishes is so foreign to them they cant comprehend teenagers making decisions against their parents wishes.

some of us however remember our younger versions and realize there was some mistakes that we had to make ourselves for the message to really sink in.

American Beauty is a great example of decisions an adult has to make. Although he didnt care about his daughters friends age which was presented as not moral, he passed on the opportunity when he discovered she was a virgin because he felt himself as a predator. Had she not been a virgin he would of been more than happy to sample the goods because he didnt feel he was taking anything away from her. The girl meanwhile was looking for a mature man as opposed to a boy her age.

the point is educating children and in extension adults regarding the impact is by far afar a more effective deterrent than a law of this nature.
Quite frankly arresting college kids for having sex with minors at an age that the minors are already engaging in sex with other minors is absurd. If they really wanted to protect teenagers from sex they would make it illegal for both participants and have both parties have the same punishment.

Glad you brought up American Beauty, it's actually my favorite movie of all time.

And in that movie, Spacey isn't acting as a rapist or a sexual predator. She's flirting with him, and he decides to flirt back. Situation happens and he's got her tits out about to fuck. If things had went any differently he would've smashed; and for that, we as society would attempt to ruin his life, call him a "rapist," make him register as a sex offender and a felon, put him in prison, etc etc etc etc.......

I just don't think that's reasonable when thought out to it's conclusion, but as @Deezus points out, these statutory rape laws aren't doing what they were intended to do.

 

[Tornicade]

Unnecessary redundant laws win on the campaign trail and end up just destroying lives well after those politicians are gone.
The sexual offender list was expanded because sexual predators were pleading down and avoiding registry. Now its applied to citizens who based on their crime are really no more of a threat to people children than anyone else but they suffer the same consequences a genuine pedophile

 

[Cassity14]

That video mentioned only twenty states have laws in place for when a girl lies about her age.

Are you fucking kidding me? That's asinine. Somebody has thought up the idea, it's been used in practice, and over half the country refuses to catch on. Sometimes I wonder if states rights are all that necessary in today's world. Most of the time I reason that they still are. This isn't one of those times.