Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

[The Voice]

If Hoyer is 4-1 then Manziel is 1-0. Hoyer had no impact on the outcome against buffalo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Randolphkeys]

But if he keeps playing essentially as he has in the first two weeks, I'd want to see Manziel after the bye assuming they thought he was ready.

I don't know if one line could sum up why this franchise has been a joke for 15 years better than this one.

Hoyer has the leaders in the locker room believing they can win every game. Manziel has been outworked and outplayed since day one, and the veterans know it. If you wonder why the Browns seem to be a lost cause one third into every season, it's because they have rarely felt what they are feeling right now amongst the players.

If Brian Hoyer, who has been comfortably in the top 20 in passing ratings every game as a Brown, gets pulled for a rookie who has shown nothing, nothing, NOTHING that instills confidence in a team winning NFL games, the team is back to where they were halfway through last year.

If Hoyer looks terrible next week, he probably still keeps the job. He has proven that much so far. The locker room knows it, the coaches know it, and at this point even the national media who love Manziel soo much know it. We are down to a handful of Browns fans who cant's see it. I don't worry about a handful of fans.

 

[SixPACK]

Exactly. Stating again, a Manziel fan...

but if at this point in time, if Manziel had the ball on our own 4, we would of been 3 and out or he would of been sacked in the end zone trying to scramble away from a just as quick as him DE/LB.

Hoyer has proven everything to show he can win games. Do we need him to be a stat stuffer like Manning/Cutler()/Rodgers, or do we just need him to win games. I hope he can reach that potential of a top 10 QB, but if he can still keep us in games and have the backing of our main guys in the locker room, you stick with him until his candle blows out.

We are 1-1, should be 2-0, against 2 teams that most of us thought we would be 0-2 against. Be fucking happy and stop nit-picking for reasons to replace Hoyer. When he gives us clear cut evidence, then Manziel can come in and dance around.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't know if one line could sum up why this franchise has been a joke for 15 years better than this one.

Hoyer has the leaders in the locker room believing they can win every game. Manziel has been outworked and outplayed since day one, and the veterans know it. If you wonder why the Browns seem to be a lost cause one third into every season, it's because they have rarely felt what they are feeling right now amongst the players.

If Brian Hoyer, who has been comfortably in the top 20 in passing ratings every game as a Brown gets pulled for a rookie who has shown nothing, nothing, NOTHING that instills confidence in a team winning NFL games, the team is back to where they were halfway through last year.

I guess the "assuming they thought he was ready" part slipped by you. As for me, I don't see a "top 20" QB as being much of an endorsement.

If Hoyer looks terrible next week, he probably still keeps the job. He has proven that much so far. The locker room knows it, the coaches know it, and at this point even the national media who love Manziel soo much know it. We are down to a handful of Browns fans who cant's see it. I don't worry about a handful of fans.

Maybe he does keep it. That would be more a comment on Manziel than on Hoyer, and its fine with me if the coaches don't think Manziel's ready.. But again, this is much less about Manziel than it is about Hoyer, so let's just cut to the chase: -- do you think Hoyer has demonstrated the arm strength and accuracy necessary to be a successful playoff QB? If so, then I guess we just have different opinions about what it takes to be a truly successful QB in the this league. But if not, then how long do you wait for him to demonstrate it? That's the question I'm raising.

Or are you okay with the long-term answer at QB being 27th in both completion percentage and YPA?

Again, I'm not a Manziel "fan", and I entered this season with an open mind on Hoyer (and Manziel too, for that matter). To me, best case scenario was that Hoyer shows he's a late bloomer and proves himself to have the makings of an above-average NFL QB. Then you'd trade Manziel and be that much further ahead. But in watching Hoyer, I'm seeing flaws that don't look like the type of things that get corrected over time. I'm willing to give him more time, but I'm not satisfied with what we've seen from him so far as the long-term answer at QB. And if he keeps playing the same way the rest of the season, I'd prefer to find out what Manziel's got, and if he's no better and shows no more potential, then draft someone else next year.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Hoyer has proven everything to show he can win games.

I honestly don't understand what that means.

We are 1-1, should be 2-0, against 2 teams that most of us thought we would be 0-2 against.

Well, we'd be 2-0 if Hoyer had led us to a score when he had the chance to go up in the 4th against the Steelers. He didn't. And we're probably a Dansby sack away from being 0-2. But the final score is the product of a lot of things beside QB play anyway. You can be an 8-8 team with good QB play, or 8-8 with crappy QB play.

Be fucking happy and stop nit-picking for reasons to replace Hoyer. When he gives us clear cut evidence, then Manziel can come in and dance around.

Okay, what's the standard Hoyer has to meet to remain the starter? "Clear cut evidence" that he's a bum who can't win games, or clear-cut evidence that he's a game manager but is unlikely to be anything more?

 

[Maximus]

"Or are you okay with the long-term answer at QB being 27th in both completion percentage and YPA?"

We are 5th in the league in scoring, 3rd if we make our extra points. He's doing that without our #1 receiver, #1 tight end and #1 running back. He's putting points on the board with one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. I'm not saying he's the long term answer, but if he has this crew putting up points, i see no reason whatsoever to make a change after game 3.

 

[Randolphkeys]

People assuming Manziel is ready should devote more time to assuming things that might possibly be real, like Sasquach attacks.

A quick list of QBs with a lower QB rating through two weeks:

Nick Foles, Andrew Luck, Jake Locker, Colin Kaepernick, Jeo Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger, Chad Henne, Geno Smith, Derek Carr, Tom Brady, Ryan Tannehill, Josh McCown, Tony Romo, Eli Manning, Matt Cassel, Alex Smith.

So, Q-Tip, if you are complaining about his top 20 performance, know that only elite performances have outranked Hoyer. Assuming Manziel would have been elite in Hoyer's place just doesn't make sense. Not after he looked worse than all those guys so far.

 

[Lee]

If Hoyer is 4-1 then Manziel is 1-0. Hoyer had no impact on the outcome against buffalo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hoyer is 3-1, but that still isnt a record from a small sample size that can be ignored. He finds away so far. I agree the buffalo game does not count.

That said, 3-1 so far and the one loss was a close game where he made a great comeback is hard to ignore for the Hoyer haters. I am not a huge Hoyer fan, but the results are becoming hard to ignore.

 

[Lee]

"Or are you okay with the long-term answer at QB being 27th in both completion percentage and YPA?"

We are 5th in the league in scoring, 3rd if we make our extra points. He's doing that without our #1 receiver, #1 tight end and #1 running back. He's putting points on the board with one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. I'm not saying he's the long term answer, but if he has this crew putting up points, i see no reason whatsoever to make a change after game 3.

Its hard to look at the numbers so far and say he is not a long term answer. At this point we have to keep going with him until he looks bad 2 games in a row. He has at the very least, earned a chance to be the long term answer, and i wasnt a Hoyer supporter to begin he season.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

"Or are you okay with the long-term answer at QB being 27th in both completion percentage and YPA?"

We are 5th in the league in scoring, 3rd if we make our extra points.

We're 27th in passing yards per attempt, and 5th in yards per rushing attempt. If you want to go by points, we've scored 2 passing touchdowns (tied for 20th), and 3 rushing touchdowns (tied for 3rd). With a defensive touchdown mixed in.

I'm not saying he's the long term answer, but if he has this crew putting up points, i see no reason whatsoever to make a change after game 3.

Okay, then assuming he keeps performing at about this same level, at what point do you make a change?

The situation I really want to avoid is that Hoyer plays like this for the rest of the season, and we end up about 8-8. So we'll have a QB who is just good enough -- if paired with a great defense and rushing attack -- to make us a mediocre team. And, we'll have a first round draft pick who will still be an unknown going into the 2015 draft.

 

[AZ_]

Hoyer is 3-1, but that still isnt a record from a small sample size that can be ignored. He finds away so far. I agree the buffalo game does not count.

That said, 3-1 so far and the one loss was a close game where he made a great comeback is hard to ignore for the Hoyer haters. I am not a huge Hoyer fan, but the results are becoming hard to ignore.

You're equating a team result with the individual, which is the flaw in the "winner" argument.

Wins are a team stat, not quarterback specific, even though they are the most important player on the field.

His performance is at best, average, more likely below average when compared to other quarterbacks.

Yes, I know he's not equipped with great weapons, but time and time again there were missed opportunities left out there that good quarterbacks convert.

He needs to play better for their winning ways to continue, it's not being a hater, it's looking at his individual performance and understanding it needs to be better.

 

[SixPACK]

I honestly don't understand what that means.

So far he has shown he wins games. Under pressure, half of the Browns community against him, he puts that aside and can lead his team to victory. Not that hard? Sorry, here you go.... "HE A WINNER. HE NO BAD!"

Well, we'd be 2-0 if Hoyer had led us to a score when he had the chance to go up in the 4th against the Steelers. He didn't. And we're probably a Dansby sack away from being 0-2. But the final score is the product of a lot of things beside QB play anyway. You can be an 8-8 team with good QB play, or 8-8 with crappy QB play.

He led us to 4 straight scoring drives and one of the best comebacks, especially against the Steelers, since their comeback. AND without Gordon, Cameron and Tate in that 2nd half. IN Pittsburgh. I am damn happy with that. Of course I want the win, but what a game.

Okay, what's the standard Hoyer has to meet to remain the starter? "Clear cut evidence" that he's a bum who can't win games, or clear-cut evidence that he's a game manager but is unlikely to be anything more?

You have no clue how he is going to turn out. Either do I. But right now he has shown he can fight back against odds (Steelers) and beat a team everyone thought we were going to lose (Saints). Who doesn't make dumbass plays/bad throws. Some of you are going to be pissed if he doesn't go 38/40, 410yds and 4TD's. This is exciting football we are watching and I for one am completely behind Hoyer. UNTIL he proves he can't win games (since you don't seem to understand, that means lose a lot of games.....) then we keep him in there.

 

[upper lip]

Well, there it is. Tom Brady is overrated, and Brian Hoyer would have had the same success if they stuck with him.

Terrible. Tom Brady at 37-years-old makes throws Hoyer couldn't dream of. Brady WAS the system in New England, he made chicken salad out of chicken shit receivers like Reche Caldwell and David Givens for years. When they finally gave him a premier wideout in Moss he submits one of the greatest seasons from a QB of all-time.

But hey, Matt Cassel had some success there as well, Brady must suck!

That's not what I said. I mean obviously, with his career he's a hall of fame quarter back. He's a great quarterback. I've always thought he was a tad bit overrated though. I do not think he's part of ELITE . He's a Notch below Rogers, luck, manning, and Brees. I've though like this for years. He has his god status because of the system he was lucky enough be thrown into and the players he's had around him. Last season he was very average when you take away all his star help (last year they probably had the best run game they've had in a long time too). I just feel like hoyer could have been just as successful as Brady if he started his career out there. On surface that looks like a horribly stupid statement, I'm aware. Just my feeling.

 

[Randolphkeys]

We're 27th in passing yards per attempt, and 5th in yards per rushing attempt. If you want to go by points, we've scored 2 passing touchdowns (tied for 20th), and 3 rushing touchdowns (tied for 3rd). With a defensive touchdown mixed in.



Okay, then assuming he keeps performing at about this same level, at what point do you make a change?

The situation I really want to avoid is that Hoyer plays like this for the rest of the season, and we end up about 8-8. So we'll have a QB who is just good enough -- if paired with a great defense and rushing attack -- to make us a mediocre team. And, we'll have a first round draft pick who will still be an unknown going into the 2015 draft.

You must have loved the past 15 years. We didn't seem close to a .500 team in years. Happy days for Q-Tip! Sorry the Browns don't suck enough for you anymore.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

You must have loved the past 15 years. We didn't seem close to a .500 team in years. Happy days for Q-Tip! Sorry the Browns don't suck enough for you anymore.

Do you really think that a quarterback who gets us to .500 with an above-average defense and powerful running game will have done enough to keep his job, if he hasn't shown signs of improving significantly along the way?

I'm old enough to remember when this team was actually good, and it wasn't when we had a poor man's Alex Smith at QB. I'm willing to see if Hoyer can improve his accuracy, but if he doesn't, I'm not willing to settle long-term for a team with an upside of 8-8. Apparently, you are.

Anyway, is there a reason you quoted my question but didn't answer it? If Hoyer's play for the rest of the season is consistent with these first two games, do you think he should remain our long-term answer at QB, so that we forget about drafting another QB in the first round this year, and forget or trade away the one we drafted this year?