Keith Bogans to Cavs, Now Traded to Philly

[Ruken]

Already debunked.

Glad, for the price tag he comes with, do not want. Guy totally imploded last year.

 

[Douglar]

Here's the full results of trhe info I've collected from this board and other sauces:

So by moving Bogans again, Griffin:

Negatives:
1) Gave up another second round pick (4th pick spent on this set up)
2) Harder to do bigger deals now. Lost the ability to combine Bogans salary with Haywood. Can't really say he lost the 150% salary balance because the team would have been in the tax.
3) Reduced shelf life, since Bogans' contract was tradable through Feb 2016, but the TPE is only good until Sept 2015.

Positives
1) The TPE is a more flexible & attractive tool than the one large non-guaranteed contract if the team wants to do a series of smaller trades. To use the Bogans contract, the partner would have to be able to absorb the full $5.3 Mil salary, but with the TPE, the other team doesn't have to absorb any salary and they get a TPE after the dust settles. Makes it easier & more attractive get multiple players in the $2-3Mil salary range.
2) The TPE works the same all year round, but the non-guaranteed salary is less attractive after Jan 10, when all contracts become guaranteed for the rest of the year. If the Cavs want to make a trade dealine deal, the TPE is the way to go.
3) Avoided paying Bogans any money, saving the team about $5.3 Mil
4) Avoided luxury tax, which means the team avoids payments and gets the payout, saving the team about another $5Mil
5) Avoided the hard cap, which reduces the team's flexibility for the rest of the season.
6) Postpones the repeater tax another year
7) Freed up another roster spot

So looking at all that stuff in that light, I can see why they would burn another second round pick. There are a lot of positives that started to show up on further review. The biggies are that it likely saves the team $10Mil this season alone and allows more flexibility to make low end trades near the trade deadline.

$10Mil can buy a lot of second round picks over the next 5 years.

 

[oracio]

Here's the full results of trhe info I've collected from this board and other sauces:

So by moving Bogans again, Griffin:

Negatives:
1) Gave up another second round pick (4th pick spent on this set up)
2) Harder to do bigger deals now. Lost the ability to combine Bogans salary with Haywood. Can't really say he lost the 150% salary balance because the team would have been in the tax.
3) Reduced shelf life, since Bogans' contract was tradable through Feb 2016, but the TPE is only good until Sept 2015.

Positives
1) The TPE is a more flexible & attractive tool than the one large non-guaranteed contract if the team wants to do a series of smaller trades. To use the Bogans contract, the partner would have to be able to absorb the full $5.3 Mil salary, but with the TPE, the other team doesn't have to absorb any salary and they get a TPE after the dust settles. Makes it easier & more attractive get multiple players in the $2-3Mil salary range.
2) The TPE works the same all year round, but the non-guaranteed salary is less attractive after Jan 10, when all contracts become guaranteed for the rest of the year. If the Cavs want to make a trade dealine deal, the TPE is the way to go.
3) Avoided paying Bogans any money, saving the team about $5.3 Mil
4) Avoided luxury tax, which means the team avoids payments and gets the payout, saving the team about another $5Mil
5) Avoided the hard cap, which reduces the team's flexibility for the rest of the season.
6) Postpones the repeater tax another year
7) Freed up another roster spot

So looking at all that stuff in that light, I can see why they would burn another second round pick. There are a lot of positives that started to show up on further review. The biggies are that it likely saves the team $10Mil this season alone and allows more flexibility to make low end trades near the trade deadline.

$10Mil can buy a lot of second round picks over the next 5 years.

I couldn't leave it with just hitting the "like" button, and I wanted to thank you for this great summery, Thanks!

 

[Randolphkeys]

Funny how with the new CBA, non-guaranteed contracts, draft rights, and trade exceptions are the new expiring contract - assets with value outside of anything basketball related.

Great point.

I think non-guaranteed contracts, draft rights, and trade exemptions have always been valued, but aside from draft rights they are more prevalent the past three years than they were previously. I think this is a result of GMs in the lower half of the league (Cavaliers included) becoming increasingly skilled at the opening moves of a rebuild. By purposefully creating language in contracts that create options for the franchise (the Bynum contract and the Scotty Hopson contract for example) the rebuild creates added value from cap space. Draft rights have always been valuable, San Antonio built a dynasty around one star (Duncan) and a bunch of draft rights crapshoots that panned out (Ginobili, Splitter, Scola).

 

[Cavsfan1985]

I think the other thing that we tend to take for granted is that Gilbert has an open pocket book. I am sure he will spend on the players we need, but we are in the situation where we are contenders and staying out of the luxury tax as long as possible(as long as it does not neg impact the team) helps hold this team together. Lets not forget, Dion is a due a raise in 2 years and TT is next year. These are steps being made now that will impact the team in the next 2-3 maybe 4 years. If we need to spend it we have the ability now, but if we don't, we saved over 4 million $.

As others have mentioned you can buy 2nd round picks, and from watching this FO we might even pref non drafted players as we can get more creative with he contracts.

 

[Douglar]

Draft rights have always been valuable, San Antonio built a dynasty around one star (Duncan) and a bunch of draft rights crapshoots that panned out (Ginobili, Splitter, Scola).

No doubt there was some luck involved in the early 2000 San Antonio picks, but my gut feeling is that there is a lot less luck involved when Buford & Pop make a pick than many other front offices that seem to be playing "Pin the tail on the Donkey". The Spurs don't hit on every pick, but they seem to be one step ahead of the rest of the league in their scouting and seem to know how to get the best out of the guys they can get. Hard to underestimate what a steal Kawhi Leonard was for them in 2011. And even if the Cavs had picked him over Thompson at #4, it's hard to imagine that Kawhi would be farther along in his development today if he had been in Cleveland for 3 years.

Late second round picks are available for cash, and if spending one more pick saves the Cavs save $10Mil in cash, it is a net plus, because there are easily ways to get those picks back on draft night if there is no roster catastrophe like what happened in Orlando.

I'm sure the Cavs FO got together and had a big gaming session where they worked through different plans for the season, figured out what players might be available, what resources they have to have on hand to get those players, and at what point the needs of the team would be high enough to justify spending resources to acquire those players. I just get nervous when I see GM's getting super fancy with trades. Sometimes people get too caught up with being clever. Eventually, keeping the picks and making smart choices based on good scouting is always the correct answer.

 

[Randolphkeys]

No doubt there was some luck involved in the early 2000 San Antonio picks, but my gut feeling is that there is a lot less luck involved when Buford & Pop make a pick than many other front offices that seem to be playing "Pin the tail on the Donkey". The Spurs don't hit on every pick, but they seem to be one step ahead of the rest of the league in their scouting and seem to know how to get the best out of the guys they can get. Hard to underestimate what a steal Kawhi Leonard was for them in 2011. And even if the Cavs had picked him over Thompson at #4, it's hard to imagine that Kawhi would be farther along in his development today if he had been in Cleveland for 3 years.

Preaching to the choir there. Buford understood the advantages of European prospects when the rest of the league were hung up on stereotypes. They knew European youth leagues played with a shorter shot clock, stayed under the same system for their entire young careers with a developed playbook, and had less mileage due to less games. Cough, AAU system has been broken for a decade, cough.

My main focus was saying that great franchises have been scouting well and selectively using those draft rights for a long time, but the influx of team options and trade exemptions seem to be on the increase. If you are the GM of a talent poor team like Orlando or Philly, you need to speed up the process of your opening moves to acquire more talent. This has been developing rather than... doing what Milwaukee always does.

 

[MirORich]

Having the ability to draft a player is always a good thing, but again, it can't be overstated how things have changed since late 90's-about 2005.

Premium young european talent used to regularly make it down in even the 50's(late second round) - Ginobli, Scola, etc. Some HS talent used to make it to the 30's and 40s and then develop into stars.

But with the HS players being pushed out of the draft, the age limit being 19 for international players, and the huge advancement of international scouting by all teams, that just rarely happens anymore. Sure you get some great players at the end of the first round or in the 30's-40's, but that is not where any of the Cavs second round picks will be.

The Spurs haven't had a second round pick of their own develop and contribute for them in a 9-10 years now. Splitter was taken in the end of the first round. Scola was way back in 2002(in the 50s). Players like Scola and Ginobli don't last that long anymore. The world is just too small now and the showcases too many.

For now, we still have our 1st round picks in 2015, 2017, and 2018. We still have the Memphis pick. We are a top destination for any buyout player later in the year. We are a top destination for any vet min player, or taxpayer MLE candidate. There has been as much quality NBA players in the past 8-9 years that were undrafted then were selected in the 50-60 range. We have Dion, Tristan, Delly, and Joe Harris all under 24. So in terms of continuing to have quality vet depth or even developing young new talent/depth, we still have so many avenues available to us, all of which realistically have an equal to better chance of panning out than a draft pick between 50-60 over the next 5 years.

 

[Kidd Karma]

No doubt there was some luck involved in the early 2000 San Antonio picks, but my gut feeling is that there is a lot less luck involved when Buford & Pop make a pick than many other front offices that seem to be playing "Pin the tail on the Donkey". The Spurs don't hit on every pick, but they seem to be one step ahead of the rest of the league in their scouting and seem to know how to get the best out of the guys they can get. Hard to underestimate what a steal Kawhi Leonard was for them in 2011. And even if the Cavs had picked him over Thompson at #4, it's hard to imagine that Kawhi would be farther along in his development today if he had been in Cleveland for 3 years.

Late second round picks are available for cash, and if spending one more pick saves the Cavs save $10Mil in cash, it is a net plus, because there are easily ways to get those picks back on draft night if there is no roster catastrophe like what happened in Orlando.

I'm sure the Cavs FO got together and had a big gaming session where they worked through different plans for the season, figured out what players might be available, what resources they have to have on hand to get those players, and at what point the needs of the team would be high enough to justify spending resources to acquire those players. I just get nervous when I see GM's getting super fancy with trades. Sometimes people get too caught up with being clever. Eventually, keeping the picks and making smart choices based on good scouting is always the correct answer.

It's more about finding system guys....Danny Green didn't work in Cle, but works in SA, but he's also a one trick pony as a spot up shooter, sit in the corner, watch Parker and Manu create for you. He signs a as an FA. I need a backup PG, lets get a similar skillset, Patty Mills, quick, gets to the paint, fearless....he's toiling around the league for 3 and a half seasons...boom midseason signing by the Spurs....it's also the environment the Spurs have created, it's a lot like the Patriots, where they'll find less guys to fit in with their big name guys, yet the staffs do an amazing job in communicating roles to the role players. And when you have a Bruce Bowen to dig back in the annals, and game tape, to show, Danny Green or Kawhi, it helps them grow and develop. Going forward, the Cavs are probably going need to get creative with the center spot and 2 guard spot.....draft is also a possibility.....speaking of creative looking at the Spur blueprints......Boris Diaw?

 

[Randolphkeys]

The Spurs also figured out one of the great secrets to scouting: look where everyone else isn't. The talent pool in Australia and Canada for instance have really come on in the past four years. They went from anomalies to a hotbed for NBA players because they just recently built a youth infrastructure. Suddenly they find Baynes and Mills. They did the same with Argentina ten years ago.

Anyways, Talented veterans have always been a big part of the Spurs organization as well. With Duncan and (way back when) Bowen walking around with rings, the young guys were expected to change and adapt for the greater good. Ginobili used to be considered too flashy and undisciplined in his draft. Mills was thught to be a selfish score-first point guard. Leonard had a broken shot and poor handle for the perimeter. They had to form their game around the guys with rings.

The Cavaliers finally have that too.

 

[Cavsfan161]

Danny green would be amazing in this system. Very underrated player.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It's more about finding system guys....Danny Green didn't work in Cle, but works in SA, but he's also a one trick pony as a spot up shooter, sit in the corner, watch Parker and Manu create for you. He signs a as an FA. I need a backup PG, lets get a similar skillset, Patty Mills, quick, gets to the paint, fearless....he's toiling around the league for 3 and a half seasons...boom midseason signing by the Spurs....it's also the environment the Spurs have created, it's a lot like the Patriots, where they'll find less guys to fit in with their big name guys, yet the staffs do an amazing job in communicating roles to the role players. And when you have a Bruce Bowen to dig back in the annals, and game tape, to show, Danny Green or Kawhi, it helps them grow and develop. Going forward, the Cavs are probably going need to get creative with the center spot and 2 guard spot.....draft is also a possibility.....speaking of creative looking at the Spur blueprints......Boris Diaw?

Danny Green didn't work out in San Antonio either initially. He got cut there...what...twice? I believe he's even stated that getting cut multiple times was what finally made him start putting in the work needed to stay in the NBA. His issues in Cleveland were not talent related. They were related to his work ethic.

 

[PriceFan14]

Can someone post this story. I wanted to know what pelton said about the usage of exeption

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11606776/trade-grades-cavs-shed-bogans-salary

 

[mhi]

Here's a breakdown of the Cavaliers-76ers deal:

Cavaliers get: 2015 protected second-round pick

76ers get: guard Keith Bogans

Cleveland Cavaliers: B

Just days after acquiring Bogans from the Boston Celtics, the Cavaliers will send his contract on to Philadelphia. In my grades for the first trade, I expressed excitement about the possibility of Cleveland packaging Bogans' non-guaranteed salary with Brendan Haywood's to acquire an expensive player or players. The Cavaliers have now forfeited that opportunity. While dealing Bogans for no players in return creates a trade exception worth $5.3 million (Bogans' salary) that they will have the next year to use, the exception can't be combined with Haywood's salary. Cleveland also has slightly less purchasing power because the matching rules that allow teams to take in slightly more money in trades than they send out don't apply to exceptions.

There are a couple of reasons the Cavaliers were willing to give up those advantages to Bogans' contract as compared to the trade exception. First, shedding Bogans' 2014-15 salary will likely allow them to stay under the luxury-tax line. While Cleveland would have paid little tax money this season, dodging the tax now means delaying the harsh repeater-tax penalties another year. That could save the Cavaliers well into the eight figures. Second, Cleveland doesn't have to spend a roster spot on Bogans, giving the team more flexibility.

I think there's a case for keeping Bogans to maintain maximum trade flexibility next summer, but I certainly can't criticize the Cavaliers for disagreeing, especially since it's not my money at stake.

Philadelphia 76ers: B

For the second time this summer, the Sixers have used their enormous trove of cap space to create a trade exception for another team. This time, the reward was a 2018 second-round pick from Cleveland. (As for the 2015 second-round pick Philadelphia gave up, it's surely protected such that the Cavaliers will certainly not get it.) Bogans' non-guaranteed contract is of little use to the 76ers, who can use cap space to make imbalanced trades, so expect him to be cut.

That makes Bogans the big loser -- he stood to make $5.3 million this season had he stayed on Cleveland's roster, and he'll be lucky to get the veteran's minimum from another team if he becomes a free agent.