Keith Bogans to Cavs, Now Traded to Philly

[wuck]

I have to think the Cavs knew they couldn't get what they wanted for the 3 Utah guys when they traded for them in July....at least as things then stood, and realized it was likely they would have to take the 3 players into the season

Could be. It just sounds a little too smooth in the sense that they traded for the Utah guys on July 22, signed Powell on Aug 23, and traded for Bogans on Sep. 26. That is like perfect clockwork in terms of when everyone was able to be aggregated and traded. Clearly they signed Powell to trade him, and I assume they had a TPE possible plan in place by then, but I would hope they kicked the tires on other possible deals.

Along the lines of what Douglar wrote, I reserve the right to criticize this series of deals when the TPE expires without netting anything useful. But I still give them credit for the Haywood deal.

Griffin has almost completely outdone Grant in terms of trading 2nd-round picks, and he has managed to do it in 6 months. I can understand why they have little to no value at this point, but it's still surprising that the Cavs no longer have any of their own 2nd-round picks until 2019.

 

[Tornicade]

I dont think it matters if the Cavs actually use the TPe. they have put themselves in a position where they can. these transactions allow the Cavs to potentially finish the season under the 4 million tax apron which means they will have an additional 4 years without paying the repeater tax.
Couple in the upcoming tv contracted and the expected increase in future tax levels along and the Cavs look pretty solid going forward.

so you have
1/ additional roster flexibility.
2. the ability to acquire a player without getting hard capped
3. the ability to stay under the cap apron for possibly two additional seasons instead of 1.

as far as the second round picks... The Cavs didnt give a crap about them as they were building ..... why should they give a crap about them now.. their D league team seems much better source for serviceable roster fillers than super late 2nd round picks .

cavs turned 3.4 million in assets and 4 roster spots taken into 4 roster spots available and a 5 million trade exception with the ability to stay under the apron.

so i dont think actually using the tpe will be a mandate but the ability to if they should need to is justifiable for what was traded away.

 

[MirORich]

I think we can all agree that for the next 4-5 years, barring significant injuries, the Cavs 2nd round picks will be in the 52-60 range. Most years in the 56-60 range:

Here is the list of players who have done anything in the NBA from the 50-60 range since 2006. I pick 2006 for two reasons. One, its the first year of the one and done rule. Two, it represents a time period that we've entered where scouting has gotten so comprehensive internationally that it is rare to have talents like Ginobli slip well into the 50's now. If you have premium talent overseas, they found you now and pick you in the first round or earl in the 2nd. Not just one or two savvy teams, but most of the league.

So here we go: Ryan Hollins(pick 50, 2006) Ramon Sessions(pick 56, 2007), Patty Mills(pick 55, 2008) Etwaun Moore(pick 55, 2011), Isiah Thomas(pick 60 2011)

It's really a joke to even include Hollins on that list. So what you're left with is 4 role playing guards out of a 8-9 year period and 80-90 selections. Mills and Sessions, both blossomed not on the team that picked them. I will 10 out of 10 times trade 6 straight years of picks in the 52-60 range for even just the opportunity that the TPE we now have affords us this season.

Additionally, for those concerned about just the idea of developing young depth with your 14th and 15th roster spots that might blossom in 3-4 years down the road, here are a few of the players during that same period who signed after going undrafted:Delly, Jeremy Lin, Shved, Aron Baynes, Wesley Mathews, Anthony Morrow, Brian Roberts, Gary Neal, Barea, CJ Watson, Mozgov. So the opportunity is still there to if we are so deep on the rest of the squad that we can afford our 14th or 15th spot to go to a long term developmental guy to get one.

In short, I know no one was up in arms about these series of trades, but I just wanted to show the types of(or lack of players) selected in the range our picks would've been taken in the next few years. Given that we are no longer having 2nd round picks in the 30s, that we have a big 3 with two of them 26 or younger, that we have other young talent(Dion, TT, Delly, and even Harris) already on the team, and that we are now one of the top choices for anyone willing to take the vet min. or taxpayer MLE, these picks traded away to manuever for this TPE are just not worth one second of second guessing.

 

[wuck]

cavs turned 3.4 million in assets and 4 roster spots taken into 4 roster spots available and a 5 million trade exception with the ability to stay under the apron.

so i dont think actually using the tpe will be a mandate but the ability to if they should need to is justifiable for what was traded away.

It depends where you set the clock. If you we go back before the Cavs acquired the Utah guys, then the Cavs have traded Felix, a recent draft-choice (in Powell), and three-crappy-draft picks for some conditional draft picks that are unlikely to vest and a $5.3M TPE.

I agree that the TPE gives them more financial flexibility than Bogans, but they didn't have to make all the other moves just to not use it. I'm not going into this expecting the TPE will work out, but if that was one of their goals, then it's reasonable to expect they are going to try to use it. I am not saying that Felix and a bunch of bad draft-picks are huge losses, but they are losses of some kind.

 

[Tornicade]

It depends where you set the clock. If you we go back before the Cavs acquired the Utah guys, then the Cavs have traded Felix, a recent draft-choice (in Powell), and three-crappy-draft picks for some conditional draft picks that are unlikely to vest and a $5.3M TPE.

I agree that the TPE gives them more financial flexibility than Bogans, but they didn't have to make all the other moves just to not use it. I'm not going into this expecting the TPE will work out, but if that was one of their goals, then it's reasonable to expect they are going to try to use it. I am not saying that Felix and a bunch of bad draft-picks are huge losses, but they are losses of some kind.

the felix trade cleared three million in cap space. Lucas also made above the league min so his salary would count if involved in the love trade.. he wasnt so instead of just clearing the cap space the cavs end up being able to keep salary on the roster they could use to create tpe later.

I have no issues with a trade that was made to give the team additional asset that ended up not being needed into something that gives the cavs flexibility going forward

next offseason cavs will have 5 million in tpe.. the 10 million hayward contract and the MLE (if they are under the 4 million apron.

once again if you go back to the felix trade the cavs took 3 million in guaranteed salary and turned it into 5 million tpe. while signing shawn marion for vet min.. which i consider an upgrade

 

[brownsbuck6]

How about Bogans the player? Can he contribute at all?

So, I'll take that as a no...

 

[Phills14]

I see Wuck and Douglar's point but the TPE has a much greater possibility of success than Powell, Felix, 3 late 2nd round picks combined IMO. Sure we may not use the TPE but if we do, it will likely be for a productive piece that will immediately contribute. The players and picks mentioned are all developmental pieces that history says will likely never pan out and if they do will be fringe role players to decent reserves.

End of the day, I'm perfectly fine with the moves and I think it makes sense on multiple levels without really much of a down side.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

I think we can all agree that for the next 4-5 years, barring significant injuries, the Cavs 2nd round picks will be in the 52-60 range. Most years in the 56-60 range:

Here is the list of players who have done anything in the NBA from the 50-60 range since 2006. I pick 2006 for two reasons. One, its the first year of the one and done rule. Two, it represents a time period that we've entered where scouting has gotten so comprehensive internationally that it is rare to have talents like Ginobli slip well into the 50's now. If you have premium talent overseas, they found you now and pick you in the first round or earl in the 2nd. Not just one or two savvy teams, but most of the league.

So here we go: Ryan Hollins(pick 50, 2006) Ramon Sessions(pick 56, 2007), Patty Mills(pick 55, 2008) Etwaun Moore(pick 55, 2011), Isiah Thomas(pick 60 2011)

It's really a joke to even include Hollins on that list. So what you're left with is 4 role playing guards out of a 8-9 year period and 80-90 selections. Mills and Sessions, both blossomed not on the team that picked them. I will 10 out of 10 times trade 6 straight years of picks in the 52-60 range for even just the opportunity that the TPE we now have affords us this season.

Additionally, for those concerned about just the idea of developing young depth with your 14th and 15th roster spots that might blossom in 3-4 years down the road, here are a few of the players during that same period who signed after going undrafted:Delly, Jeremy Lin, Shved, Aron Baynes, Wesley Mathews, Anthony Morrow, Brian Roberts, Gary Neal, Barea, CJ Watson, Mozgov. So the opportunity is still there to if we are so deep on the rest of the squad that we can afford our 14th or 15th spot to go to a long term developmental guy to get one.

In short, I know no one was up in arms about these series of trades, but I just wanted to show the types of(or lack of players) selected in the range our picks would've been taken in the next few years. Given that we are no longer having 2nd round picks in the 30s, that we have a big 3 with two of them 26 or younger, that we have other young talent(Dion, TT, Delly, and even Harris) already on the team, and that we are now one of the top choices for anyone willing to take the vet min. or taxpayer MLE, these picks traded away to manuever for this TPE are just not worth one second of second guessing.

The Lakers bought the 46th pick in the past draft for $1.8 million. The Nets bought 3 picks in round 2 for just $1.9 million.

http://www.netsdaily.com/2014/6/28/...kel-brown-at-no-22-in-internal-mock-draft-say

When you can just buy the pick, the expected return on the court is obviously considered minimal. Had Cleveland traded $1.5 million instead of the pick, no one would have cared. They can use the $1.5 million to buy picks if they want them during any draft.

 

[Douglar]

When you can just buy the pick, the expected return on the court is obviously considered minimal. Had Cleveland traded $1.5 million instead of the pick, no one would have cared. They can use the $1.5 million to buy picks if they want them during any draft.

Very true, it is usually easy to buy picks in the 50-60 range, but teams can only send away $3.3Mil in cash each NBA year, and the Cavs have already burned through most of that in the first 3 months. They won't have a whole lot of cash buying power left on draft night 2015. But I suppose they could try to buy the draft rights on July 1st, 2015 if there is a player that they really like, or if it makes financial sense, since min salary second round picks have less impact of luxury tax than min salary free agents, which is probably why the Lakers and Nets were actively buying second round picks in the past.

 

[kovanovich]

Again, I'm not against these Bogans trades, per se, but I guess I just don't understand how people can say with assurance that a second round pick in 2017 or 2018 is going to fall in the 55-60 range. I wouldn't place any money on that at all. Maybe that's what will happen, but quite possibly not.

Now as for the 2015 second round pick, sure, I will agree that will be very late.

That said, I am pretty indifferent as to the quality of players the Cavs would likely draft in the second round, even early in the second round. And I have little doubt that the Cavs will buy or otherwise acquire second round picks in the coming years, though it should be noted that per the CBA they are subject to the maximum annual cash limit of $3.3M (this season, rising in follow-on years).

My argument is that there is an opportunity cost here. Second round picks have trade value -- as we have seen -- and by trading away all of their picks till 2018, the Cavs will be limiting their options in subsequent years. The argument could be made that their value has increased under the current CBA.

I'd like to think the Cavs have done their homework and have a pretty good idea that their target(s) with the TPE will be available, but then I think of Griffin's press conference where he said they did the Jack/Zeller/2016 pick/Karasev salary dump with no assurance LeBron was coming back. Could easily have resulted in absolutely nothing aside from the chance to overpay Trevor Ariza.

 

[oracio]

The real deal behind the Cleveland Cavaliers trades involving Keith Bogans -- Terry Pluto

Cleveland Cavaliers General Manager David Griffin is making some small trades now so he can add players later -- perhaps during the season. (Marvin Fong / The Plain Dealer)
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By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
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on September 28, 2014 at 10:53 AM, updated September 28, 2014 at 10:57 AM
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CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Talking to myself about the Cavs and their recent little trades:

Question: Why would the Cavs trade for Keith Bogans one day, then trade him the next?

Answer: The national media is saying that sending Bogans to Philadelphia for a $5.4 million trade exception is a good way to keep the Cavs out of the luxury tax for next season. That's true.

Q: And that's it?

A: Not at all. When the Cavs traded with Boston for Bogans, their goal was not Bogans. It was to find a trade exception for what would be considered a middle-level -- or average player.

Q: I'm lost.

A: First of all, the Cavs payroll is about $71 million -- above the $63 million salary cap. That has limits on what they can do. And next year, that number will go higher. LeBron James can opt out of his contract and sign a new deal. Players such as Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love are also in line for raises. In other words, the Cavs have to be creative to find ways to get new players.

Q: Meaning what?

A: Here we go: If the Cavs had kept Bogans and his $5.5 non-guaranteed contract, when they went to trade him later they would have been limited. Any player they took back would have to make at least $3.4 million. Don't ask why, that's the salary cap. Futhermore, the Sixers have the NBA's lowest payroll, so they could easily take on Bogans' contract to trade later. Bogans also has a non-guaranteed deal for about $6 million in 2015-16.

Q: What's the problem?

A: Cavs General Manager David Griffin wants a player at mid-season to help who makes about $2 million. They could not have traded Bogans' contract for that player.

Q: OK, so what?

A: The $5.4 million trade exception is like a pool of money. They can break it up in any amount. So they could trade for a $2 million guy ... or a $1 million guy. It gives them more options. They need guys whose contracts fit into the exception.

Q: What's the big deal?

A: The Cavs know this is not a finished roster. They know that Anderson Varejao, Brendan Haywood, Mike Miller, Irving and others have a history of injuries. Some of their veterans are older. They may need help. The trade exception is better for a team in the salary cap position of the Cavs to add help during the season.

Q: Isn't Bogans a decent player?

A: At one time. Not now. He played only six games last season. His contract is valuable because it's not guaranteed and has two years left on it. For example, the Cavs traded Andrew Bynum's non-guaranteed contract to Chicago last season (along with draft picks) for Luol Deng. The Bulls took Bynum and cut him -- and never paid a cent. And they got rid of Deng's contract.

Q: So why not keep Bogans?

A: Because the Cavs want more flexibility. They also don't want a guy on the roster at the age of 34 who won't be playing at all this season. They may need that roster spot for someone else. The trade exception doesn't take up a roster spot.

Q: That's it?

A: They also have Haywood's contract at $12 million (non-guarateed) for 2015-16. That is a trading chip. But in the meantime, the 7-footer is making a comeback from a broken foot that kept him out all last season. The Cavs are guardedly optimistic that he may be able to help this season.

Q: Why is this hard to understand?

A: Because the NBA salary cap is a lot like the NCAA rules or the IRS code. It's designed for confusion, or so it seems.

source:
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/09/the_real_deal_behind_the_cleve.html

I liked the QA format and the insights of course...

 

[Tornicade]

if the cavs are not one of the 12 best teams in 2017 2018 seasons then the Cavs have alot more problems than whow many 2nd round picks they have

 

[Anglefan]

Again, I'm not against these Bogans trades, per se, but I guess I just don't understand how people can say with assurance that a second round pick in 2017 or 2018 is going to fall in the 55-60 range. I wouldn't place any money on that at all. Maybe that's what will happen, but quite possibly not.

You wouldn't place any money on that? Meaning, you think it's more likely than not that the Cavs WON'T be one of the six best teams in the NBA in three and four years? How will they not be? I'd place all kinds of money on that.

 

[Douglar]

if the cavs are not one of the 12 best teams in 2017 2018 seasons then the Cavs have alot more problems than whow many 2nd round picks they have

I hope the Cavs stay in contention, because I sort for felt bad watching Grant collect those high second round picks from Orlando in 2012 & 2013.

 

[MoFlo]

Let's keep in mind, that cash isn't the only thing that can be used to acquire 2nd round picks.. You see teams pull off the "I'll trade you this guy's rights for a future 2nd" quite often.

Yes, it involves giving up a future 2nd, but there are multiple ways to acquire 2nd round picks without involving cash.

Also, not sure how you're not confident that, as long as LeBron is on this team, our 2nd round picks won't be in the 50-60 range..