Sasha Kaun

[CavsRules]

I think what @David. is trying to say is that the Cavaliers didn't make moves to make themselves better; moves that were available to them by most reasonable accounts.

I don't think he's saying the Cavs inherently got worse, or even that Mo doesn't help us, but that other GMs managed to very smartly improve their teams while not racking up the highest payroll in the league (a payroll that may have prevented us from making the Johnson trade).

As David has said, the Spurs will be a force next season at less than half the price. I don't agree that they are better than the Cavaliers though, but that's neither here nor there.

The David West addition should not be discounted considering he approach us and the opportunity seemed to have existed. He left $12M on the table and signed for the vet min to play behind LMA; yet we anticipate Anderson Varejao as being a more important backup big? It's not really logical.

Missing on Johnson should also not be discounted considering we were reported as balking at paying the luxury tax. That report makes perfect sense considering what it would cost the Cavs, considering the reasons we are delaying signing Delly and JR Smith is that we're likely haggling over $1M/yr each; again, hoping to save Gilbert some money.

So yes, it does appear that we, the title favorites, are missing on quite a few player signings, who are signing for vet mins and would have been very useful to shore up our bench. Again, this should not be discounted either.

I think we should avoid rationalizing best case scenarios for David Griffin (assuming he's some amazing GM -maybe he is, maybe he isn't) and instead just think of what has and hasn't likely happened.

I do get a sense of homerism in this thread and the S34 variant, and it's completely understandable; we're all Cavs fans. It's hard to stay objective. I just think it's important to think about these things as critically as possible and take a results-oriented approach first, then try to find rationales for seemingly failing later (not the reverse).

Personally, and this is completely speculative, I think what's happening now is that Jamal Crawford is starting to encourage the Clippers, publicly, to trade him to the Cavs. I think that's pretty obvious, and he feels he's in limbo. I think the Cavaliers eventually bite the bullet and trade for him simply to appease LeBron James.

Adding Williams and Crawford adds a substantial scoring punch that we didn't have before. But, I personally think the two players are redundant and won't work very well together at this stage of their careers, but that's just my opinion.


Either way, if I'm Doc, I don't trade Crawford at this point because he has no leverage (he's no star) and it does not benefit me to do so. I go balls to the wall to try and make a Finals appearance before Balmer fires my ass. That's kind of why I think the Cavs are very likely to be left high and dry with nothing to show for the Haywood deal other than a TPE minus an asset or two to facilitate such a trade.

Again, if that's how this offseason pans out, then yes, I would be disappointed, and I don't think that's an unfair assessment of our offseason.

I would have loved Joe Johnson and David West. The idea of trading away Haywood and Anderson Varejao to essentially acquire Joe Johnson and David West was highway robbery.

I know we have to go off what is being "reported", but we also have conflicting reports on the Joe Johnson trade rumors. One report said the Nets were looking for a third team to take on Andy. One report said it's all up to Dan Gilbert on if he wanted to take on Joe's $25M contract, basically shelling out $50M just for one player. Another report said the Nets wanted more assets in the deal than just cap clearing.

So, I guess you pick your posion there. I don't think Gilbert has or is currently holding up any deal(s) due to money. I truly believe if the Cavs had a agreement with the Nets for a Haywood/Varejao swap for Joe Johnson, it would have been done already. It makes too much sense to do and get another wing threat, who still has a lot of basketball left.

I also feel Gilbert and Griff are going to use their heads and not spend all this money just to spend it, just to throw money anywhere and everywhere. Gilbert is a smart business man for a reason.

I'm not too thrilled we lost out on West.. He would have been perfect to replace Varejao. It hurts more that he took the vet min to play with the Spurs, but we also heard that Pop still had a chance to recruit West, even after the report came out about West "pitching" himself to the Cavs. I just believe West made his decision because he didn't want to wait around to see if the Cavs were going to need him, he just went where he knew he could contend and get his minutes.

Outside of those two guys, I haven't really felt the Cavs hurt themselves. I would have loved Gerald Green, but he had his sights set on Miami regardless of if we went hard after him or not.

While August 1st is around the corner, there is still time.. I don't know if Griff gets something done, but I definitely believe he is trying. But as he said, he won't trade the Haywood contract away just to trade it away.

It has to make sense.

 

[MirORich]

Apologize if im frustrated and lashing out but as q Cleveland fan who gets lip service every season about every sport and pitched about how great everything is and how solid our plan is and that literally everything is going according to plan, it bothers me at the core that its happening again, most posters are believing the hype and this is the best shot we will have in many,many,many years.

Cleveland fan for 37 living years if all sports. Have been with you through all the heartbreak and false expectations.

I don't for one minute put this team and this roster in the same category as the 2007-2010 Cavs or as the 90's era Indians, who were excellent teams but had fatal flaws.

This is the best collection of talent a modern Cleveland sports team has had. That guarantees nothing but it is a group set up to win more than any other team we've been a fan of.

If you simply want to point out that there are 3-4 other teams in the league with the legitimate talent to also win the title next year, I'm 100% with you.

But some of the things you're raging against the front office for or using to say we missed an opportunity I don't agree with.

Primarily because I refuse to fault the FO for a player feeling they had a better opportunity for minutes/role elsewhere(West/A'mare)

You also discredit the Mo signing because he wanted back. The inference is that the FO didn't have to do any work for that. But at the same time players like A'mare and Green both stated they had personal reasons for wanting to be in Miami.

I also refuse to blame to FO for rumored deals that we do not know the whole story on. We will never know the true facts on whether or not the Cavs could have pulled the trigger a Joe Johnson deal or if the Nets just discussed it as an option until they felt more comfortable about setting up the buyout with Deron Williams.

So it leaves us again with the list of resources the Cavs had coming into the offseason. Based on those resources, what were you expecting? And how can you make statements of finality about what they did or didn't do when some of the pieces are still in play?

Yes, if Haywood simply got cut or the TPE generated by him never gets used, that would be a disappointment and a missed opportunity. But a TPE and picks is what got us Mozgov last year. Their are clear examples of them being used by our own front office brilliantly. So I can neither praise them or slam them yet for the as yet unknown end result of Brendan Haywood. Is it too much to ask the same of you?

 

[Hydroponic3385]

So...Sasha Kaun...

 

[MirORich]

Vardon's latest article just says they met last night but according to a league source the Cavs are not in a hurry to make a decision on him. They can't lose him to another NBA team so that not a problem.

It does seem pretty clear where this is heading. They will wait until the last possible moment to decide if there is a deal involving Haywood for a player(s) they like. If that doesn't materialize and they trade him for a TPE to Portland or Philly, than they have a small list of guys they're prepared to sign: Kaun and one of the remaining SFs(Prince, Wright,Acy)

Another 10-12 days of waiting will do wonders for the ongoing debates of the Cavs offseason.

 

[gratefuldead]

David is very exctitable

Calm down, son.

We made all our big moves last year, we only need a few tweaks and injury luck.

 

[malus]

So...Sasha Kaun...

He's alright.

What's Semih up to these days?

 

[Paul]

Vardon's latest article just says they met last night but according to a league source the Cavs are not in a hurry to make a decision on him. They can't lose him to another NBA team so that not a problem.

It does seem pretty clear where this is heading. They will wait until the last possible moment to decide if there is a deal involving Haywood for a player(s) they like. If that doesn't materialize and they trade him for a TPE to Portland or Philly, than they have a small list of guys they're prepared to sign: Kaun and one of the remaining SFs(Prince, Wright,Acy)

Another 10-12 days of waiting will do wonders for the ongoing debates of the Cavs offseason.

I agree with you that we can't really grade the offseason moves until we see what happens with the Haywood situation, because that seems to be the thing holding things up right now. My concern is that Wright, Prince and Acy and probably many others could be gone in 10 days. There will probably be SOMEONE left that will be serviceable, but will that guy we end up getting be the guy we wanted most for a vet minimum or will it just be the guy who happened to be left over?

Our complacency with the SF free agents suggests that we have a real shot at a SF better than Dorell Wright via the Haywood contract. That's what I'm hoping anyways. We probably won't ever know what deals Griffin passed up on (if any) for the Haywood contract so it will be hard to grade his moves one way or the other. If Aug. 1st hits and we just do the TPE, will that mean that Griffin was basically intending to do that all along unless something obscenely favorable came up, or will it mean that we were close on multiple deals but it never materialized? We may never know.

I'm hopeful that there may be some strong possibilities in the pipeline, which would then explain and justify why we have been reluctant to grab a serviceable SF backup with the vet minimum.

 

[TitleTown]

David is very exctitable

Calm down, son.

We made all our big moves last year, we only need a few tweaks and injury luck.

Exactly. Plus, people can't discount the fact that every other team knows we'll be in the finals again, and are hesitant to deal with us because they will either face us in the East or see us in the finals (West).

So don't discount the fact that the entire league sees us as the team to beat, and will likely rather deal with anyone else before dealing with us.

 

[TheLand1287]

Exactly. Plus, people can't discount the fact that every other team knows we'll be in the finals again, and are hesitant to deal with us because they will either face us in the East or see us in the finals (West).

So don't discount the fact that the entire league sees us as the team to beat, and will likely rather deal with anyone else before dealing with us.

Good call. Prime example of this is the Spurs opting to trade Splitter to ATL and let CoJo walk to TOR... rather than trade Splitter and Mills to us.

People getting upset over a washed Amare or a low efficiency chucker Gerald Green not joining us need to chill. Sure, decent role players, but they aren't the missing link to us winning a ring either.

 

[Plaxicofan7]

It's crazy. Those were the only two players available.


Sorry you burst your homer bubbles but we fucked up and were not gonna win a damn thing.

We aren't winning a damn thing? Even tho we were 2 games away from winning it all last year without Kyrie and Love? Okay. Makes sense.

 

[Kevin Ollie]

Let's make it simple.

Who did better this offseaaon, clippers Or spurs or us? Mo williams and every player we already had that didn't win last year made the logical move by staying with a winning team and makin the most money. Brilliant work we did. Our competition got better and we got mo williams and a scrub


Fucking idiot.

Please tell me how amazing a euroleagie retiree will be for us.

Then put quantifiable expectations to go along with it and put your money where your twelve year old mouth is.

Golden State added Shaun Livingston and returned their top eight guys in minutes played from a team that lost in the first round in 2014 and then won the title the next year, a year where the other three semi-finalists (Cleveland, Atlanta, and Houston) had all improved from the year before.
The biggest change was the emergence of Draymond Green as he turned 24 years old.

The Cavs have added Mo Williams and (presumably will) return their top eight guys (Iman being ninth behind Marion, but passing him in the rotation when it mattered) in minutes played from a team that lost in the Finals in 2015.
The Cavs have a 23-year old Kyrie Irving who was largely a non-factor in the last two rounds of the playoffs poised to have a great season.

So, not only does what the Cavs have done and the landscape they face have a precedence of successful outcomes, all you needed to do was look back as far as this year to see that that was the case.

 

[Rich]

I just love how the Joe Johnson thing is accepted as gospel truth.

As if there is no possibility whatsoever that it, in fact, was the Nets who didn't want to agree to the deal unless we could find someone else to take on Varejao.

After all, the very same report that is used to buffer the argument that it was the Cavs who backed out then later states that the Nets, PRIOR TO BUYING OUT DERON WILLIAMS, were no longer in favor of the deal due to Varejao.

That Haywood and Varejao deal always looked mediocre as hell to me for the Nets. Especially that early in the off-season. Made a lot more sense to explore other avenues before taking on Anderson Varaejao's broken down ass for the next two seasons just to save some tax money.

And lo and behold, they did find something better. Why is it so unreasonable to believe that they chose to wait and see if they could find something before doing that deal?

My own belief of how events transpired, based on nothing but my own analysis of the deal and what New Jersey was looking for.

The two sides discussed a potential deal. The Nets then wanted to try and find another taker for Varejao. When they couldn't, they wanted to at least wait and see before doing the deal because taking on Varejao, a player virtually useless to them in their current situation, would add to their cap the next two years. Why make that deal early in July? Why not wait and see if something else pans out first.

Now, I have no idea if that's how it went down but what I can say is that's what I would have done if I were owner and GM of the Nets. I wouldn't have sacrificed 20 million in cap space over the next two seasons in order to save some tax dollars this season, at least not before exploring every possible avenue prior to August 1st.

EDIT: I don't want to continue to rehash this argument. All I'm asking is that people at least consider the possibility that the Nets were A) Not all that keen at taking on Varejao and B) Willing to at least wait until a little closer to the August 1 deadline to see if they could find something better. Is that not at least a reasonable possibility?

 

[David.]

We aren't winning a damn thing? Even tho we were 2 games away from winningmade t all last year without Kyrie and Love? Okay. Makes sense.

You remember that we lost with kyrie right? And that our best +- lineups justvdidnt include him?

It mightvhave been two games away on paper but gs ended up consistently beating us by an average of more than ten pts a game.It was a great story and shocking thatvwe won two but they would have taken the next five straight. Refs and the nba would have made an extra 50mil with a game seven and we could only come within 8 with their help.

 

[Hydroponic3385]

You remember that we lost with kyrie right?

It mightvhave been two games away on paper

Uh no, not "it might have been." It literally was two games away (all without Love, and almost all without Kyrie). And frankly, if you're gonna take that approach to a discussion, then I think it's just as fair to say we were not only two games away, but we were about as close as you could be to up 3-0 in the series.

 

[David.]

Uh no, not "it might have been." It literally was two games away (all without Love, and almost all yrie). And frankly, if you're gonna take that approach to a discussion, then I think it's just as fair to say we were not only two games away, but we were about as close as you could be to up 3-0 in the series.

..are you genuiinely under the impression that I dont know that we lost 4-2? and are unaware that 'might have been', in the english language, is a phrase commonly used to more accurately describe an event than a flat number like 4-2 and give better context? and doesnt always mean 'it might have been, but didnt hapen that way?'

anyways, if your argument to all that I posted is based on semantics, and shitty ones that youre not grasping, you should probably not have it.