So long, David Griffin

[Cavatt]

Im glad we have griff as gm instead of windhorst.

The trades he proposes are always horrible for the cavs.

Every one on today's show was much better for the other team.

Can you give a report for the lulz?

 

[Tornicade]

I don't think those things were mutually exclusive though. Williams will be on a minimum contract and the Korver trade didn't exactly add salary. The Korver trade was incredible and Williams looks to be a good find, but I don't think it's unfair at all to label the offseason horrible.

They let Delly walk, expected Mo to adequately replace him, signed Birdman, and traded for Dunleavy. All of those moves were really bad in hindsight.

I'm very glad that Griffin has nearly rectified all of those mistakes, but calling out people for judging him on both positives and negatives seems silly.

Dunleavy and Mo Williams turned into Kyle Korver
birdman netted a 2nd round pick and although heavily protected it can used for a future trade.

so how were those moves bad?

A team in the luxury tax was able to absorb salary and turn that salary into Kyle Korver.

Most likely signing Delly would of nixed the Dunleavy trade and using AV's exception and we wouldn't have Korver ,

 

[RichieRichPaul]

Can you give a report for the lulz?

I remeber one was a caller asking what we would have to give for ajinca and frasier from pellies

Windy said we would definitely have to give shumpert. Lol

Pels cant even find a taker for ajinca who is barely a nba players and sucks at D

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Yeah, I'm not willing to give Griffin a pass on Dunleavy, Mo, and Birdman either. I'm also not a fan of the fact that until now, the idea to backup LeBron has been solely with players older than him.

I get that Birdman was only injury insurance, but there were better options, and what kind of injury insurance is an old guy who's even more likely to get injured?

I'm not sure there were better options...as evidenced by the current un-signed big men. Remember, minimum deals only. He has title experience, good locker room presence, etc. It was worth a shot to have him on a minimum deal.

The decision making on Mo has proven to be downright laughable. This is entirely separate from letting Delly walk. I totally understand not wanting to pay Delly 10 million dollars per season, but the answer to the cheap backup dilemna clearly wasn't Mo, and that seems to have been pretty easy to see with his injury last season and his status of being a locker room issue after getting benched upon Kyrie's return.

Mo would have been completely FINE as our back-up PG, if he didn't pull the stunt he pulled. He basically lied to the Cavs and then once his money became guaranteed he pulled the rug out from under us. He actively tried to fuck us over. That's not something anybody could have anticipated, even if he was a little bit upset at losing his spot to Dellavedova last year. At such a low price, Mo would have been exactly what we needed as a back-up PG if he would have actually played and not pulled the stunt. That debacle is ALL on Mo.

Dunleavy was also a bad move that didn't work out. Lucky for the Cavs, his salary magically lined up with the guy's who became available.

Dunleavy was not a bad move. Dunleavy was a clever move that salvaged what would have been the loss of Dellavedova for nothing. Dunleavy had a slow start, but in the month before he was traded, his shooting percentages were creeping up when he played and he was playing better. If not for the trade, I feel like he would have become a useful rotation piece overall, as evidenced by him playing really well for the Hawks so far. He has a slow start to the year, but he's also been playing very well and much more like himself ever since the beginning of December.

And the Cavs aren't "lucky" his salary magically lined up...the Cavs did GREAT front office work by making that move and convincing Atlanta to give up Korver, because ever since that trade, Atlanta realized they got played so badly by the Cavs and they regret the trade immensely. Windhorst said exactly this on the radio today.

I'm not anti-Griffin, but I'm not going to claim he's been 100% right on every move he's made as a GM either.

I'm not saying he's 100% either, but I disagree with your examples given.

EDIT: The claim that Dunleavy didn't cost assets isn't one I agree with. He ate up a roster spot and required a TPE to use.

That exception was essentially created for the sole purpose of acquiring Dunleavy. At worst, he was asset neutral because we essentially gained the same exact trade exception back when we trade him to Atlanta. And "ate up a roster spot?"...he actually played! You are seriously REACHING for criticism here.

And the fact that Dunleavy is actually a real player who doesn't suck is a big reason we were able to get Korver. If he was 4.8 million in dead weight, I'm not sure Atlanta even does that deal.

We absolutely cannot judge the Duneleavy transaction more positively because he was moved for Korver. They are entirely separate moves.

But the fact that he was moved for Korver at least speaks somewhat to Dunleavy's value, which is very relevant to the original Dunleavy transaction.

 

[Cassity14]

Wait, who is saying Griff is 100% right on every move? I don't see anyone saying that. But he HAS hit more than he's missed. Being critical over adding Dunleavy is ridiculous. He ate up a roster spot... From whom? The Cavs had an open spot going into the season, and Dunleavy back in July was better than pretty much anyone the Cavs could have gotten in FA for the vet minimum. And really, he used up a TPE? The majority of the time those go unused anyway, so the fact he was acquired for just the TPE was perfectly fine.

Please, since you have all of the answers, tell us what should've been done differently given the cap rise, lack of trade assets, and the type of players who were signing vet minimum deals.

I mean, we've been sitting here now and all season (ESPECIALLY before grabbing Korver) talking about lack of assets and the prior need to move guys like Anderson and Mo off the roster to free up spots. When multiple roster spots were being used up by either young guys who suck (McCrae, Felder) or old guys who suck and/or can't be eating major minutes (Jefferson, Jones, Anderson, Dunleavy). From that frame of perspective, yes, a TPE to acquire someone and an open roster spot to do so certainly had value.

As for cheap FAs, Terrence Jones immediately comes to mind. He signed for very little this past offseason. There are others as well, but I'm not going to dive into every offseason transaction from this past summer.

My original posting in this thread started because TitleTown decided to call out everyone that didn't like Griffin's moves over the summer, and all I'm doing is pointing out that the front office, in retrospect, didn't really get a single thing right in the summer looking back. It was a poor offseason which is thankfully being rectified throughout this season.

I think Griff is an amazing gm at what he was brought in to do, which is assemble a roster of pieces that fit together and can compete for a championship. He's at the top of the game, but I'm sure as hell not going to sit here and say he's perfect or that he hasn't made some mistakes.

 

[Cassity14]

I'm not sure there were better options...as evidenced by the current un-signed big men. Remember, minimum deals only. He has title experience, good locker room presence, etc. It was worth a shot to have him on a minimum deal.




Mo would have been completely FINE as our back-up PG, if he didn't pull the stunt he pulled. He basically lied to the Cavs and then once his money became guaranteed he pulled the rug out from under us. He actively tried to fuck us over. That's not something anybody could have anticipated, even if he was a little bit upset at losing his spot to Dellavedova last year. At such a low price, Mo would have been exactly what we needed as a back-up PG if he would have actually played and not pulled the stunt. That debacle is ALL on Mo.



Dunleavy was not a bad move. Dunleavy was a clever move that salvaged what would have been the loss of Dellavedova for nothing. Dunleavy had a slow start, but in the month before he was traded, his shooting percentages were creeping up when he played and he was playing better. If not for the trade, I feel like he would have become a useful rotation piece overall, as evidenced by him playing really well for the Hawks so far. He has a slow start to the year, but he's also been playing very well and much more like himself ever since the beginning of December.

And the Cavs aren't "lucky" his salary magically lined up...the Cavs did GREAT front office work by making that move and convincing Atlanta to give up Korver, because ever since that trade, Atlanta realized they got played so badly by the Cavs and they regret the trade immensely. Windhorst said exactly this on the radio today.




I'm not saying he's 100% either, but I disagree with your examples given.



That exception was essentially created for the sole purpose of acquiring Dunleavy. At worst, he was asset neutral because we essentially gained the same exact trade exception back when we trade him to Atlanta. And "ate up a roster spot?"...he actually played! You are seriously REACHING for criticism here.

And the fact that Dunleavy is actually a real player who doesn't suck is a big reason we were able to get Korver. If he was 4.8 million in dead weight, I'm not sure Atlanta even does that deal.




But the fact that he was moved for Korver at least speaks somewhat to Dunleavy's value, which is very relevant to the original Dunleavy transaction.

Korver was traded for the pick. Dunleavy was the salary to match. Sure, the front office and coaching staff are going to say nice things about Dunleavy, but their unloading of Korver for an asset was a very clear sign that they don't care to contend this season.

 

[Cassity14]

double post delete

 

[Rich]

Dunleavy and Mo Williams turned into Kyle Korver
birdman netted a 2nd round pick and although heavily protected it can used for a future trade.

so how were those moves bad?

A team in the luxury tax was able to absorb salary and turn that salary into Kyle Korver.

Most likely signing Delly would of nixed the Dunleavy trade and using AV's exception and we wouldn't have Korver ,

So we're allowed to use pure hindsight when it's in Griffin's favor, but not when it puts a move in a bad light?

We can't judge the Korver trade based on what will happen, but dammit, we can judge the Dunleavy and Williams moves based on who they managed to salvage from those moves after the fact!

Come on. That's not a good argument. Particularly Birdman. I can point to a goofball center, playing for the minimum in Golden State, giving them valuable minutes, that could have also landed that same pick if need be, or, better yet, not been traded at all because he's producing for cheap.

Griffin has been good. But he wasn't flawless this off-season. It's one thing to rely on an old vet or two, but when you make that a staple of your bench? LeBron had a point. That could have been Michael Beasley or JaVale McGee, someone who isn't way past their primes. So having a bench that consisted of James Jones, Mo Williams, Birdman, Richard Jefferson, and Channing Frye......that's just too damn old.

He's trying to rectify that problem, and he's done a good job to this point. But he helped create that problem.

Again, overall, he's been good. His trades have been excellent. But there needed to be a point this off-season where he stopped and looked at the bench and said "no, we're getting too old," and instead signed some younger minimum players instead of rounding out the roster with Birdman.

(Also not a fan of the Richard Jefferson contract, but I get why they did it. Almost impossible to get away from with the way he played in the FInals...but he's probably not gonna be contributing in two years while still under contract).

 

[MirORich]

Mo was the answer all along, Dunleavy was actually a stud waiting to break out, and Birdman was a huge impact on the locker room. Sorry Griff, I didn't see it.

Mo was coming off a great final 30 games of 2015 with Charlotte. Something like 17 PPG, 6 APG in 30 minutes. He has the history here playing with and off of LeBron and it was a cheap deal. Certainly it failed in a vacuum, but I don't think the reasoning behind it was flawed

These were also all guys brought in to occupy the 9-15 range of the roster. Cross check every other GMs record on that level of player, whether young and old, and you will see plenty of misses. And that goes for the top half of rosters as well. Sure, Griff is not perfect, but what GM is? And the terrain Girff has to navigate is not an easy one. Yes, on a foundational level, he has the ultimate in stability and magnetism: LeBron. But that also means a certain amount of care to work independent from LeBron but in ways that satisfy him and Klutch. And then add on our ownership. On one hand, they spend and spend and spend. But on the other, they are notoriously hot headed and reactionary.

We follow every single move and option this team has on an intensely microscopic level. If we turned around and did the same for the other 15-20 GMs with elite rosters or promising young teams, we'd find a lot of good moves but a lot of bad moves or missed opportunities. All things considered, I think Griff has done a really good job.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Korver was traded for the pick. Dunleavy was the salary to match. Sure, the front office and coaching staff are going to say nice things about Dunleavy, but their unloading of Korver for an asset was a very clear sign that they don't care to contend this season.

If that was true, they would have traded Millsap before he hits free agency at 32.

The Hawks are obviously trying to contend. Maybe they had a moment of weakness where they were convinced they wanted to blow it up, and Griffin struck while the iron was hot, but as it stands TODAY, they are trying to win. If they could re-do the Korver trade, they would have kept him, no doubt in my mind.(and this isn't exactly opinion, been stated (Windhorst)that the Hawks are even actively trying to improve via trade at the deadline. And they don't have to say nice things about him, Dunleavy has actually been playing very, very well for the Hawks.

 

[kovanovich]

I just think retaining Delly was a not an option given the tax implications and in context of how much money the franchise lost last year. Getting Dunleavy in the process was sort of the compromise, budget wise. The fact he was a de facto expiring contract was also critical. I think that was his real value to Atlanta, which apparently tried to pawn him off on a third team.

Griffin miscalculated by relying on Mo returning this year, but he was in a tough situation. We can reasonably question whether Griff could have been somewhat less selective in bringing in a veteran backup PG who could have helped to limit LeBron's minutes a bit. Maybe it will still work out though and he will still find the right guy.

I think we can still be a bit critical of his end-of-the-roster decisions by explicitly valuing culture over talent and overstocking the roster with guys in their late 30s. Griff has also regularly had to bribe teams to take on players he unwisely signed -- Mike Miller (money and 2 2nd rounders to Portland to generate Haywood TPE), Joe Harris (money to Orlando), Varejao (2018 first round pick to Portland), Kaun (money to Philly), Mo Williams (part of trade that sent out 2019 first round pick to Atlanta), Birdman Anderson (money to Charlotte). He still presumably needs to find a way to dump Jordan McRae.

I realize some of the roster decisions may not have been Griff's (thinking especially of the Varejao).

I mean, I think Griffin has on the whole done a really good job, and I hope he does get a contract extension.

 

[Jordan]

If that was true, they would have traded Millsap before he hits free agency at 32.

The Hawks are obviously trying to contend. Maybe they had a moment of weakness where they were convinced they wanted to blow it up, and Griffin struck while the iron was hot, but as it stands TODAY, they are trying to win. If they could re-do the Korver trade, they would have kept him, no doubt in my mind.(and this isn't exactly opinion, been stated (Windhorst)that the Hawks are even actively trying to improve via trade at the deadline. And they don't have to say nice things about him, Dunleavy has actually been playing very, very well for the Hawks.

My read is that the Hawks did want to do a partial rebuild, and they thought that by trading Korver, Bembry and Prince would get more playing time. Moreover, they thought Millsap could net them one piece of young talent, a usable vet, and a top-20 draft pick.

For example, I know for a fact that the Raptors and Thunder both had interest. But the Raptors were not willing to part with Powell, Patterson/Ross, and their first round pick. OKC wasn't willing to move Payne, Kanter, and a first round pick. So the deals that Atlanta ended up receiving were not moves that seriously helped them with a one year, partial rebuild.

Consequently, in my read, Atlanta felt that keeping Millsap for a playoff run that earns Bembry and Prince playoff minutes was better than trading Millsap, getting a minimal return, and missing out on the playoffs.

I could be totally wrong about the rationale, that is just my interpretation about what happened.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

So we're allowed to use pure hindsight when it's in Griffin's favor, but not when it puts a move in a bad light?

We can't judge the Korver trade based on what will happen, but dammit, we can judge the Dunleavy and Williams moves based on who they managed to salvage from those moves after the fact!

Come on. That's not a good argument. Particularly Birdman. I can point to a goofball center, playing for the minimum in Golden State, giving them valuable minutes, that could have also landed that same pick if need be, or, better yet, not been traded at all because he's producing for cheap.

Griffin has been good. But he wasn't flawless this off-season. It's one thing to rely on an old vet or two, but when you make that a staple of your bench? LeBron had a point. That could have been Michael Beasley or JaVale McGee, someone who isn't way past their primes. So having a bench that consisted of James Jones, Mo Williams, Birdman, Richard Jefferson, and Channing Frye......that's just too damn old.

He's trying to rectify that problem, and he's done a good job to this point. But he helped create that problem.

Again, overall, he's been good. His trades have been excellent. But there needed to be a point this off-season where he stopped and looked at the bench and said "no, we're getting too old," and instead signed some younger minimum players instead of rounding out the roster with Birdman.

(Also not a fan of the Richard Jefferson contract, but I get why they did it. Almost impossible to get away from with the way he played in the FInals...but he's probably not gonna be contributing in two years while still under contract).

Im not saying Griff is perfect...But you KILLED the Williams move and you cite Javale McGee and Beasley as something Griffin missed on?

Those guys are all cut from the same cloth. Same general story for their entire careers too(though B-Ez and McGee had a level of idiocy that even Williams never quite matched).

If you can hit on even ONE guy like that in a season, you did a damn good job as a GM. Williams is looking like Griff's home run. (Obviously a smaller sample size so far, but looking very good for now).

 

[Cassity14]

Mo was coming off a great final 30 games of 2015 with Charlotte. Something like 17 PPG, 6 APG in 30 minutes. He has the history here playing with and off of LeBron and it was a cheap deal. Certainly it failed in a vacuum, but I don't think the reasoning behind it was flawed

These were also all guys brought in to occupy the 9-15 range of the roster. Cross check every other GMs record on that level of player, whether young and old, and you will see plenty of misses. And that goes for the top half of rosters as well. Sure, Griff is not perfect, but what GM is? And the terrain Girff has to navigate is not an easy one. Yes, on a foundational level, he has the ultimate in stability and magnetism: LeBron. But that also means a certain amount of care to work independent from LeBron but in ways that satisfy him and Klutch. And then add on our ownership. On one hand, they spend and spend and spend. But on the other, they are notoriously hot headed and reactionary.

We follow every single move and option this team has on an intensely microscopic level. If we turned around and did the same for the other 15-20 GMs with elite rosters or promising young teams, we'd find a lot of good moves but a lot of bad moves or missed opportunities. All things considered, I think Griff has done a really good job.

I haven't said anything against the bolded once.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

My read is that the Hawks did want to do a partial rebuild, and they thought that by trading Korver, Bembry and Prince would get more playing time. Moreover, they thought Millsap could net them one piece of young talent, a usable vet, and a top-20 draft pick.

For example, I know for a fact that the Raptors and Thunder both had interest. But the Raptors were not willing to part with Powell, Patterson/Ross, and their first round pick. OKC wasn't willing to move Payne, Kanter, and a first round pick. So the deals that Atlanta ended up receiving were not moves that seriously helped them with a one year, partial rebuild.

Consequently, in my read, Atlanta felt that keeping Millsap for a playoff run that earns Bembry and Prince playoff minutes was better than trading Millsap, getting a minimal return, and missing out on the playoffs.

I could be totally wrong about the rationale, that is just my interpretation about what happened.

I feel differently, just because of how quickly they pulled an about face and publicly declared Millsap wouldn't be traded so soon after the Korver thing. I think they realized they screwed up after their players and fans reaction to what happened. If they truly thought Millsap could nab them that, they would not have taken him off the block so far away from the deadline , because they understand like anyone else that the best offers don't come until basically the time of the year were in right now.

I think they were ready to blow it up and we're going to start that process with Korver but now it has backfired. If anything, they regret trading Korver so soon and they had to take Millsap at least publicly off the market because once teams saw the Korver trade they were thinking firesale and Millsaps value took a bit.

I think they're gonna max Millsap out in the summer and then could trade him as early as next deadline. In an attempt to preserve his value a bit , I'd imagine.