So long, David Griffin

[vam1993]

I feel like whenever I read the gripes with Griffin, its people who are tying Grant's moves to him. The bad drafts, the squandered picks, etc. Griffin has done a damn good job at not only acquiring talent for the now, but also keeping the core together for a long window.

I don't want to hear people bitch about 2nd round picks he used to facilitate trades because not only would those guys not matter, but we have spares that he acquired. We have our own 2018 1st, 2020 1st and beyond. Why draft a late 1st, when you can find a similar talent in the 2nd on a better deal? Its not like they're going to play. With the way our team is built & the core we have, don't expect us to pull someone late in the draft when we are trying to win now.

The mindset changes when you are in win now mode. Especially when you have a legitimate chance to compete for a title. No need for wiping bottoms and feeding snacks. We need legitimate NBA players who are not only prepared to win now, but know what it takes to do so & are willing to make that sacrifice.

Does Lebron have an effect? Sure, but thats not Griff fault. Nor was it his fault to takes risks on JR, creatively acquire Dunleavy then flip him for Korver. He has turned dog shit into gold every time.

Lets look back at his moves and find one where we didn't come out on top...

Griff was hired in Feb 2014. Which was a month after we dumped Bynum, the legendary Kings pick, for Lou Deng. So this wasn't his waste of assets. I feel like people assume this was his fault.

Griff's 1st Move: trading guaranteed salaries of Clark & Sims for the expiring contract of Spencer Hawes. In the process we burned our own 2014 2nd & one we acquired. This was one of many moves to make a move for LBJ. WIN

2nd Move: Acquired the Brendan Haywood contract for next to nothing. WIN

3rd Move: Dumped Jack + Zeller + Karasev & an extra 1st for a few seconds and cap space. Without this space we cannot resign Lebron James to the max deal he wanted!!! No "If he took less money" scenarios need apply. WIN

4th Move: Traded Wiggins + Bennett+ 2016 1st (ended up being #16, not sure who it belonged to) for Love. The 2nd fiddle Lebron was promised upon return. WIN

5th Move: Acquired extra 2nds & Keith Bogans for unguaranteed scrubs. WIN

6th Move: Dion, Lou Amundsen & Alex Kirk for JR Smith, Iman Shumpert & a 1st round pick. WIN

7th Move: The 1st rounder from above which was heavily protected, and the another pick from the Grizzlies which to my knowledge still has not been conveyed due to its protections for Timofey Mozgov. Neither of the picks were ours that was moved. WIN

8th Move: Drafted Tyus Jones & his guaranteed deal then flipped him for Cedi Osman, who is under our control. Wash at worst

9th Move: Dumped Hayward, Miller & two extra seconds for cap space. Missed opportunity IMO

Signed Mo Williams, RJ, Sasha & then resigned Lebron James, Kevin Love to an incredibly friendly deal, Iman Shumpert to a friendly deal, JR to a solid deal, and then Delly to a two year deal. Resigned Tristan right before the season started to a deal that looks great as each day passes. Huge offseason for us

10th Move: traded the abortion that is Anderson Varejao & a 2018 pick for Channing Frye. Win

11th Move: Traded our 2019 out with the corpse of Dunleavy for Kyle freaking Korver. He made this possible by giving Portland our owed pick a year early. Win

Today he's signing young talents like Derrick Williams to fill spots on the roster where we were most bare & signing all star caliber vets to slide them into our rotation.

So what if Delly & Mozzy walked. Moz was replaceable and would only serve limited minutes with the way we are constructed. As for Delly, he wanted to start and get a nice check. Cant fault the guy, but he's about one year away from being a back up again. Smart moves to let them go.

The dude is creative at not only finding huge moves, but finding them for cheap. He has Lebron James & we are desperate to win. Not once has a GM gotten the upper hand on Griff. You cannot take away from what he has accomplished. He has found a way to get legitimate talent for nothing. Many people have been the GM of a Lebron James led team and struggled to find half of the quality that Griff has.

I think most of what you say is correct. However, in some trades (specifically 3rd, 4th and 7th) griff has seemed either impatient or overly eager to get an asset he has in mind, and given up draft compensation. Ultimately I dont think that anyone we have drafted with those pics would have made any difference in the teams results over the past 3 years, and I dont think any of those deals ultimately hurt us. We have seen what griff has been able to accomplish with severely limited assets (creating what seems like infinite TPEs comes to mind). It would be interesting to see what he would be able to do with some more lucrative assets. I think griff showed great patience at the deadline this year, and it looks like its going to net us d-will and bogut. I think the championship and increasing sense of job security (even though his contract expires after this year i think) allowed him not to make a desperate move that would cost us more future assets, or current players (shump, frye). again, i think griff has done a great job, but early in his career here he was a little quick to throw in draft picks.

 

[TitleTown]

I think most of what you say is correct. However, in some trades (specifically 3rd, 4th and 7th) griff has seemed either impatient or overly eager to get an asset he has in mind, and given up draft compensation. Ultimately I dont think that anyone we have drafted with those pics would have made any difference in the teams results over the past 3 years, and I dont think and of those deals ultimately hurt us. We have seen what griff has been able to accomplish with severely limited assets (creating what seems like infinite TPEs comes to mind). It would be interesting to see what he would be able to do with some more lucrative assets. I think griff showed great patience at the deadline this year, and it looks like its going to net us d-will and bogut. I think the championship and increasing sense of job security (even though his contract expires after this year i think) allowed him not to make a desperate move that would cost us more future assets, or current players (shump, frye). again, i think griff has done a great job, but early in his career here he was a little quick to throw in draft picks.

Wrong. This is so dumb. What does "a little quick to throw in draft picks" actually mean?

He had NO CHOICE but to trade some of those early assets for space after LBJ announced he was coming back.

Be specific: In what particular deal could he have gotten a better deal? What other/better deal was available? Was that GM willing to deal with Griff for the assets we had available?

The only way you could answer those questions is if you have inside information. Otherwise, you're just writing arm-chair GM bullshit that has zero basis in factual information.

Griffin is fucking amazing. Period.

 

[ACisKING]

I feel like whenever I read the gripes with Griffin, its people who are tying Grant's moves to him. The bad drafts, the squandered picks, etc. Griffin has done a damn good job at not only acquiring talent for the now, but also keeping the core together for a long window.

I don't want to hear people bitch about 2nd round picks he used to facilitate trades because not only would those guys not matter, but we have spares that he acquired. We have our own 2018 1st, 2020 1st and beyond. Why draft a late 1st, when you can find a similar talent in the 2nd on a better deal? Its not like they're going to play. With the way our team is built & the core we have, don't expect us to pull someone late in the draft when we are trying to win now.

The mindset changes when you are in win now mode. Especially when you have a legitimate chance to compete for a title. No need for wiping bottoms and feeding snacks. We need legitimate NBA players who are not only prepared to win now, but know what it takes to do so & are willing to make that sacrifice.

Does Lebron have an effect? Sure, but thats not Griff fault. Nor was it his fault to takes risks on JR, creatively acquire Dunleavy then flip him for Korver. He has turned dog shit into gold every time.

Lets look back at his moves and find one where we didn't come out on top...

Griff was hired in Feb 2014. Which was a month after we dumped Bynum, the legendary Kings pick, for Lou Deng. So this wasn't his waste of assets. I feel like people assume this was his fault.

Griff's 1st Move: trading guaranteed salaries of Clark & Sims for the expiring contract of Spencer Hawes. In the process we burned our own 2014 2nd & one we acquired. This was one of many moves to make a move for LBJ. WIN

2nd Move: Acquired the Brendan Haywood contract for next to nothing. WIN

3rd Move: Dumped Jack + Zeller + Karasev & an extra 1st for a few seconds and cap space. Without this space we cannot resign Lebron James to the max deal he wanted!!! No "If he took less money" scenarios need apply. WIN

4th Move: Traded Wiggins + Bennett+ 2016 1st (ended up being #16, not sure who it belonged to) for Love. The 2nd fiddle Lebron was promised upon return. WIN

5th Move: Acquired extra 2nds & Keith Bogans for unguaranteed scrubs. WIN

6th Move: Dion, Lou Amundsen & Alex Kirk for JR Smith, Iman Shumpert & a 1st round pick. WIN

7th Move: The 1st rounder from above which was heavily protected, and the another pick from the Grizzlies which to my knowledge still has not been conveyed due to its protections for Timofey Mozgov. Neither of the picks were ours that was moved. WIN

8th Move: Drafted Tyus Jones & his guaranteed deal then flipped him for Cedi Osman, who is under our control. Wash at worst

9th Move: Dumped Hayward, Miller & two extra seconds for cap space. Missed opportunity IMO

Signed Mo Williams, RJ, Sasha & then resigned Lebron James, Kevin Love to an incredibly friendly deal, Iman Shumpert to a friendly deal, JR to a solid deal, and then Delly to a two year deal. Resigned Tristan right before the season started to a deal that looks great as each day passes. Huge offseason for us

10th Move: traded the abortion that is Anderson Varejao & a 2018 pick for Channing Frye. Win

11th Move: Traded our 2019 out with the corpse of Dunleavy for Kyle freaking Korver. He made this possible by giving Portland our owed pick a year early. Win

Today he's signing young talents like Derrick Williams to fill spots on the roster where we were most bare & signing all star caliber vets to slide them into our rotation.

So what if Delly & Mozzy walked. Moz was replaceable and would only serve limited minutes with the way we are constructed. As for Delly, he wanted to start and get a nice check. Cant fault the guy, but he's about one year away from being a back up again. Smart moves to let them go.

The dude is creative at not only finding huge moves, but finding them for cheap. He has Lebron James & we are desperate to win. Not once has a GM gotten the upper hand on Griff. You cannot take away from what he has accomplished. He has found a way to get legitimate talent for nothing. Many people have been the GM of a Lebron James led team and struggled to find half of the quality that Griff has.

He is without question a top 5 GM. Your point about the Cavs being desperate to win should not be overlooked. Everyone else in the league knows that too and yet none of them have been able to take advantage of the Cavs. And somehow despite the pressure to win now, Griff has not made any panic moves. He has certain advantages that other GMs don't - an owner who is willing to spend well into the tax and a player who makes everyone else look good - but he also has a relatively limited chest of assets and still finds ways to improve your team.

 

[col63onel]

The only way you could answer that question is if you have inside information. Otherwise, you're just writing arm-chair GM bullshit that has zero basis in factual information.

Aren't you really doing this by calling moves "wins" as well? How do you know for sure he got the best deals possible, or didn't turn down good deals? Isn't all of this arm chair GMing?

 

[TitleTown]

Aren't you really doing this by calling moves "wins" as well? How do you know for sure he got the best deals possible, or didn't turn down good deals? Isn't all of this arm chair GMing?

So do you want to critique Griff too? These are not the same things.

 

[col63onel]

So do you want to critique Griff too?

He's certainly made some bad moves, but we just litigated it in S34 and I don't feel like re-litigating it.

 

[TitleTown]

He's certainly made some bad moves, but we just litigated it in S34 and I don't feel like re-litigating it.

Then go away if you're not going to participate productively.

 

[col63onel]

Then go away if you're not going to participate productively.

 

[TitleTown]

If your argument is "we already talked about it in s34," and you don't want to offer any specifics...then that's just noise.

"He definitely made mistakes..."

But you're not going to list any or provide an argument?

Gee, thanks for your contribution.

 

[col63onel]

If your argument is "we already talked about it in s34," and you don't want to offer any specifics...then that's just noise.

"He definitely made mistakes..."

But you're not going to list any or provide an argument?

Gee, thanks for your contribution.

Fine. Why you so mad though?

He spent 2 1st round picks on Timofey Mozgov. A 28 year old center who had been a fringe rotation player. Mozgov had 1/2 a productive season for the Cavs, then left in FA.

He signed Varejao to an awful extension (I believe you called it an "abortion"), that required a 1st to unload. That's 3 first rounders on 2 centers who did zilch to help us win the title.

He spent 2 2nd rounders on half a season of Spencer Hawes.

The Cavs biggest avenue for signing FA since he took over is the MLE. In the first 2 years years, he signed Mike Miller and Mo Williams, who combined for about 1/2 a productive season between them. He used 2 2nds to get rid of Miller, although it was 2 separate deals with him and Haywood.

To sum up, that's 3 2nds, 3 1st and 2 MLEs spent on Mo Williams, Timofey Mozgov, Anderson Varejao, Spencer Hawes and Mike Miller. That's just wasted resources.

In summer of 15, he had opportunities to sign Delly and JR to long term deals. He didn't, and Delly walked for Dunleavy, and JR signed a much more expensive deal.

And keep in minds, he took over the Cavs with a ton of cap space, 2 extra firsts and a ton of extra 2nds, plus an owner willing to go deep into the tax. He's been dealing from a position of asset strength since he got here.

Overall, I do agree he's a good GM. I don't think pointing out his mistakes is nit picking. He's legit made some objectively bad moves.

 

[cavsfever]

Fine. Why you so mad though?

He spent 2 1st round picks on Timofey Mozgov. A 28 year old center who had been a fringe rotation player. Mozgov had 1/2 a productive season for the Cavs, then left in FA.

He signed Varejao to an awful extension (I believe you called it an "abortion"), that required a 1st to unload. That's 3 first rounders on 2 centers who did zilch to help us win the title.

He spent 2 2nd rounders on half a season of Spencer Hawes.

The Cavs biggest avenue for signing FA since he took over is the MLE. In the first 2 years years, he signed Mike Miller and Mo Williams, who combined for about 1/2 a productive season between them. He used 2 2nds to get rid of Miller, although it was 2 separate deals with him and Haywood.

To sum up, that's 3 2nds, 3 1st and 2 MLEs spent on Mo Williams, Timofey Mozgov, Anderson Varejao, Spencer Hawes and Mike Miller. That's just wasted resources.

In summer of 15, he had opportunities to sign Delly and JR to long term deals. He didn't, and Delly walked for Dunleavy, and JR signed a much more expensive deal.

And keep in minds, he took over the Cavs with a ton of cap space, 2 extra firsts and a ton of extra 2nds, plus an owner willing to go deep into the tax. He's been dealing from a position of asset strength since he got here.

Overall, I do agree he's a good GM. I don't think pointing out his mistakes is nit picking. He's legit made some objectively bad moves.

Good post -- Griffin isn't perfect. But the bottom line is that he has been basically successful at getting us what we need when we need it, against long odds at times, and hasn't devastated the franchise with inexcusably bad contracts. The criticisms would be a lot more powerful if he hadn't A) won a championship, and B) pulled off his amazing performance this year, getting us Korver/DWill/DWill and maybe Bogut, an incredible haul for very little. The patience, discipline, and focus he showed this year to pull all this off has been incredible.

I do think that going forward we are going to be stuck doing a lot of year to year improvising because our development pipeline is dry (in part a consequence of giving away so many draft choices) but we seem to have one of the best GMs in the business at doing that.

 

[TitleTown]

Fine. Why you so mad though?

He spent 2 1st round picks on Timofey Mozgov. A 28 year old center who had been a fringe rotation player. Mozgov had 1/2 a productive season for the Cavs, then left in FA.

Wrong. He spent one 1st round pick + Dion Waiters for Mozgov, Shumpert, and JR. That was a FANTASTIC move, and it was absolutely a package deal. Even with you giving this trade the Monday morning quarterback treatment 3 years later, it is STILL a great move.

He signed Varejao to an awful extension (I believe you called it an "abortion"), that required a 1st to unload. That's 3 first rounders on 2 centers who did zilch to help us win the title.

Are you going to keep looking at these trades out of context? That was the trade that brought in Frye. It wasn't a homerun trade, but I'd still do that trade.

So, in other words, Griffin traded two shitty 1st round picks for: Mozgov, Shumpert, JR, and Frye. That is GREAT fucking work from Griffin. I would still make all of those moves today.

He spent 2 2nd rounders on half a season of Spencer Hawes.

So what?! 2nd round picks can be bought any time. This is defintely nit picking.

The Cavs biggest avenue for signing FA since he took over is the MLE. In the first 2 years years, he signed Mike Miller and Mo Williams, who combined for about 1/2 a productive season between them. He used 2 2nds to get rid of Miller, although it was 2 separate deals with him and Haywood.

What other players were willing to come to the Cavs that he could have gotten instead? It's easy to complain about this 3 years later, but it you don't know about his other options and IF those other players wanted to come here...then this is just hindsight 20/20 bullshit.

In summer of 15, he had opportunities to sign Delly and JR to long term deals. He didn't, and Delly walked for Dunleavy, and JR signed a much more expensive deal.

Yes, he could have had them cheaper. HOWEVER, I'm not sure it's fair to blame Griffin for FINANCIAL decisions. What if Griffin wanted to sign them earlier, but the owners told him to wait? Without inside information, it's hard to lay the financial decisions purely at Griffin's feet.

And keep in minds, he took over the Cavs with a ton of cap space, 2 extra firsts and a ton of extra 2nds, plus an owner willing to go deep into the tax. He's been dealing from a position of asset strength since he got here.

I agree. And he's done a FANTASTIC job doing so.

 

[bigfoot5415]

Fine. Why you so mad though?

He spent 2 1st round picks on Timofey Mozgov. A 28 year old center who had been a fringe rotation player. Mozgov had 1/2 a productive season for the Cavs, then left in FA.

He signed Varejao to an awful extension (I believe you called it an "abortion"), that required a 1st to unload. That's 3 first rounders on 2 centers who did zilch to help us win the title.

He spent 2 2nd rounders on half a season of Spencer Hawes.

The Cavs biggest avenue for signing FA since he took over is the MLE. In the first 2 years years, he signed Mike Miller and Mo Williams, who combined for about 1/2 a productive season between them. He used 2 2nds to get rid of Miller, although it was 2 separate deals with him and Haywood.

To sum up, that's 3 2nds, 3 1st and 2 MLEs spent on Mo Williams, Timofey Mozgov, Anderson Varejao, Spencer Hawes and Mike Miller. That's just wasted resources.

In summer of 15, he had opportunities to sign Delly and JR to long term deals. He didn't, and Delly walked for Dunleavy, and JR signed a much more expensive deal.

And keep in minds, he took over the Cavs with a ton of cap space, 2 extra firsts and a ton of extra 2nds, plus an owner willing to go deep into the tax. He's been dealing from a position of asset strength since he got here.

Overall, I do agree he's a good GM. I don't think pointing out his mistakes is nit picking. He's legit made some objectively bad moves.

Not to nitpick but the Mozgov trade had a Grizzlies pick I'm 99% certain we would have never seen along with a Thunder pick we just acquired days before. So we didn't really have it for more than a few days. Plus who really cares about seconds? Usually you get 2-3 solid players per draft.

The Andy trade was worth the 1st IMO. It's not completely unloading if you're getting the better player. Especially that much of a difference maker.

Lastly, JR was not signing in 2015. The cap spike was too much in their favor.

 

[col63onel]

Wrong. He spent one 1st round pick + Dion Waiters for Mozgov, Shumpert, and JR. That was a FANTASTIC move, and it was absolutely a package deal. Even with you giving this trade the Monday morning quarterback treatment 3 years later, it was STILL a great move.

The JR/Shump part was great. And you can choose to look at it as 1 full deal if you want. But OKC and NY didn't do the Dion/Shump/JR deals contingent upon a Mozgov trade. Griff easily could've done those deals, then used the other 1sts on something more productive. At the time, a lot of people thought it was an overpay for Mozgov, so I don't think it's really MMQBing. It was an overpay at the time, and looks worse now.

Are you going to keep looking at these trades out of context? That was the trade that brought in Frye. It wasn't a homerun trade, but I'd still do that trade. And again, you're wrong, that wasn't 3 trades on centers, it was 2. The third pick you're talking about was part of the Mozgov, Shumpert, JR package deal. That was NEVER a Cavs pick.

I perfectly understand the context of the deals. It was 2 separate deals. We absorbed Frye into the Haywood TPE, and sent out Varejao and a1st in a separate deal. We did this because we were too far into the tax to add a 7mil player in Frye. If Varejao isn't already on that contract, we get Frye for nothing, and have an extra 1st to spend on something useful.

So what?! 2nd round picks can be bought any time. This is defintely nit picking.

2nd rounders can be very useful in trades, as a sweetner or as filler. Given how good Griff is at manipulating TPEs, having 2nds to move around actually can be really useful assets. You can "buy" a pick on draft night, but that doesn't really help you make any trades, unless you draft and develop a player into something useful.

What other players were willing to come to the Cavs that he could have gotten instead? It's easy to complain about this 3 years later, but it you don't know about his other options and IF those other players wanted to come here...then is his just hindsight 20/20 bullshit.

Again, why this only excuse in Griffin's favor? This was my original point and you really have yet to address it.

Yes, he could have had them cheaper. HOWEVER, I'm not sure it's fair to blame Griffin for FINANCIAL decisions. What if Griffin wanted to sign them earlier, but the owners told him to wait? Without inside information, it's hard to lay the financial decisions purely at Griffin's feet.

See above

I agree. And he's done a FANTASTIC job doing so.

If you explain every deal he's done as "well we don't know what was really available, so it's unfair to blame him", then yes. Could really say that about GM, which means this is all armchair GMing, which was literally my initial point.

 

[TitleTown]

If you explain every deal he's done as "well we don't know what was really available, so it's unfair to blame him", then yes. Could really say that about GM, which means this is all armchair GMing, which was literally my initial point.

No, this is not the same thing.

IF you are going to say "he could have gotten a better deal," then the burden of proof is on you to prove that is true.

I am NOT saying he got the best deal. I am ONLY saying that based on what we do know, he has done a fantastic job.