The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Okay, good point. But I still don't see what would be his path to the throne, because before trying to make himself King, he'd have to get rid of Tommen.

I think getting rid of Tommen will be done for him.

This is where we're at after book five:

Spoiler

The Lannisters are weak and don't trust the Tyrells.
The Tyrells are grasping for power wherever they can take it, not to mention that Mace Tyrell is a buffoon.
The royal fleet has been stolen by the former master of ships.
Cercei and Margaery are both about to undergo trials by the Faith for treason.
Tywin Lannister, the one man powerful and respected/feared enough to manage the throne, is dead.
Kevan Lannister, who might have done a decent enough job of managing the tension between the Lannisters and the Tyrells, is also dead.
The Golden Company has landed in the Stormlands with a boy claiming to be Aegon Targaryen and have already taken half a dozen castles.
The Ironborn are attacking the various castles of the Reach.
The Redwyne fleet is likely heading to the Reach to attempt to take back their lands.

It's highly likely, in my opinion, that the Golden Company will ally with Dorne and take King's Landing, killing both Tommen and Myrcella (who is on her way back to King's Landing, mind you) in an ironic reversal of Tywin's original sack of King's Landing at the end of Robert's Rebellion.

 

[TopGun]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I thought Tywin sat out the rebellion until the siege of King's Landing where he came in under pretense of protecting the city but instead sacked it and took it over for Robert.

Anyways, regarding Sansa, I seem to remember her slowly getting smarter and ... not cunning, but...wiser, in her chapters as time went on. Maybe I'm not remembering right.

Spoiler

Obviously referring to the latest 2 books

You do realize that you didn't use spoiler tags on the actual spoiler information but on the source of the information?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I think getting rid of Tommen will be done for him.

That would make him no longer a genius, but just a beneficiary of dumb luck. If he's plotting for the throne, then he has to have a plan to get rid of Tommen, or at least be aware of someone else's plan (and ability) to do so. And, he then has to have a plan for getting rid of whomever was strong enough to depose Tommen and the Lannisters.

That is a very tall order that hasn't even been hinted at in the show.

This is where we're at after book five:

Spoiler

While that would take care of Tommen and the Lannisters, it just puts someone stronger on the throne. Who rallies around Littlefinger to defeat Aegon, the Gold Company, and Dorne, just to place him on the throne? Not to mention the looming shadow of Danaerys, of whom he'd have to be aware given his sources and contacts. He's going to rally Westeros to fight her too?

Again, maybe something with the Iron Bank. The show has really built it up to be powerful, and Littlefinger's role as Master of Coin probably means he's got better contacts and influence with them than anyone. Perhaps he could convince it that he's the only one with a hope of ever getting those debts repaid, so the Iron Bank demands he be made King.

Still, for all its money, I don't see it as having the power to make LF King. We know that mercenaries are not enough to take and hold the entire continent. To me, that suggests the IB would have to use its financial leverage against individual houses to get them to support LF. But the old adage is true. When you owe the Bank a little money, it has the power. When you owe the Bank a lot of money, you do. Why would Dorne give in to the IB? They're not in debt. Neither are the Tyrells, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that the Vale is either. Seems more credible that they'd respond to such a demand by saying "Fuck off. We pick our own Kings. But, we'll agree to make LF Master of Coin and to make repayment a priority."

Can't really see the IB going to the mat for LF under those circumstances.

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

You do realize that you didn't use spoiler tags on the actual spoiler information but on the source of the information?

No, I was trying to talk about the show without talking about the books, actually. Or rather, to word it better, without revealing the up to date fate of a big character in the books.

If you revealed the spoiler then you know that

Spoiler

Sansa is alive as of the latest book, which I didn't want people to know

I'm honestly not going to just spoiler block everything in this thread, it's annoying as shit for people who want to discuss the story. Having to highlight over every single post to reveal the spoilers. I think you read this thread at your own discretion. I make an effort to spoiler things most of the time but it just gets tiring after a while especially when there are like 3 people who only watch the show.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Tommen and Myrcella dying like that Jack would make me sad. They are pretty much the only truly innocent people in that whole damn family.

 

[supergoat52]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Tommen and Myrcella dying like that Jack would make me sad. They are pretty much the only truly innocent people in that whole damn family.

Spoiler

Its an interesting hypothesis though, remember the prophecy that haunts Cersei, which seems to state that her children will die before she does. I've been wondering how exactly that would happen and that seems like as good a possibility as any other.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

That would make him no longer a genius, but just a beneficiary of dumb luck. If he's plotting for the throne, then he has to have a plan to get rid of Tommen, or at least be aware of someone else's plan (and ability) to do so. And, he then has to have a plan for getting rid of whomever was strong enough to depose Tommen and the Lannisters.

That is a very tall order that hasn't even been hinted at in the show.

A lot of what has happened for Littlefinger has been luck. He had no part in Bran getting thrown out of a window, nor in the assassin going after him while he was in a coma, yet he benefited from both with his simple lie to Cat and Ned. He had no part in the Red Wedding that we know of, and I doubt he would have been involved in any plot to kill Cat regardless. He had nothing to do with Renly dying, but his ability to arrange the marriage between Margaery and Joffrey that resulted from Renly's death got him Harrenhal. He had nothing to do with

Spoiler

Tywin's death, but that obviously aided him immensely, as it put Cercei in charge.

Littlefinger is not some boogeyman who is behind everything bad that happens in the books. He's behind a lot of things, yes, but his real strength is how well he is able to maneuver himself around events that he can't control.

Spoiler

As to your point about who would remove Aegon from the throne, well, the obvious answer to that is Dany. We know for a fact that there is going to be a second Dance of the Dragons, so it seems rather obvious that it should be between Aegon and Dany, as Dany has been called the "slayer of lies."

The bottom line here is that there is no rule that states that Littlefinger has to be central to everything that happens in the books. A lot of things have happened that he was utterly not involved with, and I think the second

Spoiler

Dance of the Dragons

will be another one of those things. It honestly seems like his plan right now is to see how the chips fall in King's Landing before he makes his move anyway.

Tommen and Myrcella dying like that Jack would make me sad. They are pretty much the only truly innocent people in that whole damn family.

Aegon and Rhaenys were innocent too. It didn't stop the Mountain from crushing one against a wall and Lorch from stabbing the other about forty times. Bad things happen in these books, and I don't think we should delude ourselves that either of the two remaining Lannister kids are going to walk out of this alive.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

A lot of what has happened for Littlefinger has been luck. He had no part in Bran getting thrown out of a window, nor in the assassin going after him while he was in a coma, yet he benefited from both with his simple lie to Cat and Ned. He had no part in the Red Wedding that we know of, and I doubt he would have been involved in any plot to kill Cat regardless. He had nothing to do with Renly dying, but his ability to arrange the marriage between Margaery and Joffrey that resulted from Renly's death got him Harrenhal. He had nothing to do with

Spoiler

Tywin's death, but that obviously aided him immensely, as it put Cercei in charge.

Littlefinger is not some boogeyman who is behind everything bad that happens in the books. He's behind a lot of things, yes, but his real strength is how well he is able to maneuver himself around events that he can't control.

A lot of that stuff actually didn't really matter in the end. As long as Ned came to KL to be Hand, his basic plan to get rid of Robert and put the Lannisters in charge was probably going to work.

Spoiler

If Dany gets rid of Aegon, then LF is in the position of having to get rid of Danaerys, her supporters that put her on the throne, and her dragons.

The bottom line here is that there is no rule that states that Littlefinger has to be central to everything that happens in the books. A lot of things have happened that he was utterly not involved with...It honestly seems like his plan right now is to see how the chips fall in King's Landing before he makes his move anyway.

To me, that really boils down to not having a plan at all. "I'll just let shit happen and try to scheme something good for myself" as a plan to sit the Iron Throne is very weak. I do think it is not inconsistent with the books, where LF's motives are a bit more shadowy. But in the show, where they've kind of made it more open, and particularly if you ascribe to the theory that looking at the throne, etc.., means that his actual plan is to sit it, then I think flying by the seat of his pants isn't a sufficient explanation of his "plan". He'd have to have something more concrete, and that's why I was listing the hurdles to obtaining his supposed goal.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Aegon and Rhaenys were innocent too. It didn't stop the Mountain from crushing one against a wall and Lorch from stabbing the other about forty times. Bad things happen in these books, and I don't think we should delude ourselves that either of the two remaining Lannister kids are going to walk out of this alive.

Spoiler

Allegedly

:chuckles:

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Spoiler

Allegedly

:chuckles:

Yeah, I know, but I'm operating under the assumption, based on Dany's House of the Undying vision and Qaithe's words about the "mummer's dragon," that

Spoiler

he's not legit. I think he's a Blackfyre.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Yeah, that's probably right. They should have saved the name a dance with dragons for book six or seven.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

Yeah, that's probably right. They should have saved the name a dance with dragons for book six or seven.

I think it was supposed to happen in book five but Martin wrote about 400 chapters chronicling characters traveling from one place to another. :chuckles:

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

The Winds of Winter is a really lame title so I agree.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

The Winds of Winter is a really lame title so I agree.

I just think it's hilarious that it took him five ridiculously long books to even get to the part of the story where winter actually arrives.

"Winter is coming...just not for about 7000 more pages."

 

[Chris]

Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

I just think it's hilarious that it took him five ridiculously long books to even get to the part of the story where winter actually arrives.

"Winter is coming...just not for about 7000 more pages."

Well, it is an epic series of 7 books.

Where seasons can last 10 years or whatever. Makes sense it doesn't start in book 2. But yeah. I get it. :chuckles: