The Ongoing Attendance Problem

[Nom]

One of the articles about Perez mentioned he has received death threats. I know he is married and recently had a kid - if dude blows off some steam on the fans after that I'm not going to get too riled up.

 

[Kevalier]

One of the articles about Perez mentioned he has received death threats. I know he is married and recently had a kid - if dude blows off some steam on the fans after that I'm not going to get too riled up.

Enough of this shit.. I'm sorry, but since when was Cleveland the only city in America with nutty sports fans who fire off death threats to their own players? Ask Scott Norwood or Bill Buckner whether it's solely a Cleveland issue. Chris Perez needs to show a little respect and remember that fans are his business' customers and essentially sign his checks. Has the support for the Indians been weak and incredibly disappointing so far? Absolutely. Yet, a little context needs to be provided since there are legitimate reasons why Progressive Field isn't filled every night. But for him to practically blame the fans for Carlos Beltran choosing not to sign here is absurd. Does anyone seriously think that Carlos Beltran is studying attendance trends and basing his decision on where to sign on how strong a team's fan support is? Cleveland wasn't attractive to Beltran but I'm assuming that it was related more to climate and lack of nightlife rather than the fans. Also, how rich of Perez to lecture the fans in "not taking it personally when a player leaves or doesn't want to play in Cleveland" yet he clearly took the boos personally. And to all of the posters on here who are applauding Perez and labeling Cleveland as a piss-poor sports town: with all due respect, go fuck yourself. The fact that these teams have any fans remaining at all after mostly being atrocious and tormenting for so long is a near miracle.

 

[AZ_]

Enough of this shit.. I'm sorry, but since when was Cleveland the only city in America with nutty sports fans who fire off death threats to their own players? Ask Scott Norwood or Bill Buckner whether it's solely a Cleveland issue. Chris Perez needs to show a little respect and remember that fans are his business' customers and essentially sign his checks. Has the support for the Indians been weak and incredibly disappointing so far? Absolutely. Yet, a little context needs to be provided since there are legitimate reasons why Progressive Field isn't filled every night. But for him to practically blame the fans for Carlos Beltran choosing not to sign here is absurd. Does anyone seriously think that Carlos Beltran is studying attendance trends and basing his decision on where to sign on how strong a team's fan support is? Cleveland wasn't attractive to Beltran but I'm assuming that it was related more to climate and lack of nightlife rather than the fans. Also, how rich of Perez to lecture the fans in "not taking it personally when a player leaves or doesn't want to play in Cleveland" yet he clearly took the boos personally. And to all of the posters on here who are applauding Perez and labeling Cleveland as a piss-poor sports town: with all due respect, go fuck yourself. The fact that these teams have any fans remaining at all after mostly being atrocious and tormenting for so long is a near miracle.

If the fans signed his checks he'd be living under the 480 bridge.

He didn't blame attendance solely as the reason guys like Beltran don't want to play there, but it's well known as a shit spot on the travel schedule as it is. It's just a simple fact Cleveland has turned into a blacklist city for free agents and that's based on the atmosphere of the players when they visit from other teams.


But thank you for making Perez's point for him.

 

[Gimme Some Mo]

Chris Perez is an idiot. Been following the guy on Twitter for a while and he is just a dickhead. Very big ego.

Don't care about the attendance debate.... Nothing more boring to me than whining about the attendance.... Just sayin.... Perez is a dick.

I am sure the fans are the reason Beltran didn' want to sign here. Not the shitty weather, shitty city, and mediocre baseball team.... but the fans. LMAO Perez.

 

[Kevalier]

If the fans signed his checks he'd be living under the 480 bridge.

He didn't blame attendance solely as the reason guys like Beltran don't want to play there, but it's well known as a shit spot on the travel schedule as it is. It's just a simple fact Cleveland has turned into a blacklist city for free agents and that's based on the atmosphere of the players when they visit from other teams.


But thank you for making Perez's point for him.

I'm sorry I didn't receive the exclusive memo that you did from the MLB Players Association denouncing Cleveland as being "blacklisted." The attendance dilemma certainly doesn't help the Indians recruit free agents though you and I both know that money is the bottom line and fan support is far down on the list of factors for free agents choosing where to sign. And how exactly did I make Perez's point for him? By noting that he's a hot-headed, overly sensitive loudmouth who needs to think twice before speaking in front of the media or tweeting?

 

[AZ_]

I'm sorry I didn't receive the exclusive memo that you did from the MLB Players Association denouncing Cleveland as being "blacklisted." The attendance dilemma certainly doesn't help the Indians recruit free agents though you and I both know that money is the bottom line and fan support is far down on the list of factors for free agents choosing where to sign. And how exactly did I make Perez's point for him? By noting that he's a hot-headed, overly sensitive loudmouth who needs to think twice before speaking in front of the media or tweeting?

Call him whatever you want, he's 100 percent correct. Whether he should be saying those things in public or not is the only thing up for debate here.

If I took a pool of media members and the players, I would imagine the worst cities to visit would be a runaway of Baltimore and Cleveland at the top. Nobody on this planet is a bigger hometown supporter than me or a bigger homer than me, but through my own experiences professionally that unequivocally the two most popular answers I'd get. Detroit and Pittsburgh are also right up there as well.

Some times it does come down to money, but that correlates directly with the market size. But beyond the small market size of Cleveland, the attitude surrounding the city and the perception of the city are in just a horrible horrible state for the last 10 years.

What changes that? I don't know.

 

[Steve_424]

Chris Perez is an idiot. Been following the guy on Twitter for a while and he is just a dickhead. Very big ego.

Don't care about the attendance debate.... Nothing more boring to me than whining about the attendance.... Just sayin.... Perez is a dick.

I am sure the fans are the reason Beltran didn't want to sign here. Not the shitty weather, shitty city, and first-place baseball team.... but the fans. LMAO Perez.

Fixed

 

[Nom]

Enough of this shit.. I'm sorry, but since when was Cleveland the only city in America with nutty sports fans who fire off death threats to their own players? Ask Scott Norwood or Bill Buckner whether it's solely a Cleveland issue. Chris Perez needs to show a little respect and remember that fans are his business' customers and essentially sign his checks. Has the support for the Indians been weak and incredibly disappointing so far? Absolutely. Yet, a little context needs to be provided since there are legitimate reasons why Progressive Field isn't filled every night. But for him to practically blame the fans for Carlos Beltran choosing not to sign here is absurd. Does anyone seriously think that Carlos Beltran is studying attendance trends and basing his decision on where to sign on how strong a team's fan support is? Cleveland wasn't attractive to Beltran but I'm assuming that it was related more to climate and lack of nightlife rather than the fans. Also, how rich of Perez to lecture the fans in "not taking it personally when a player leaves or doesn't want to play in Cleveland" yet he clearly took the boos personally. And to all of the posters on here who are applauding Perez and labeling Cleveland as a piss-poor sports town: with all due respect, go fuck yourself. The fact that these teams have any fans remaining at all after mostly being atrocious and tormenting for so long is a near miracle.

My post said that Chris Perez has a new family and is receiving death threats. Your response was that Perez needs to show those fans threatening his life over a game more respect. Based on that, I'm guessing we're never going to agree. Death threats are never ok and should never be condoned because they happen in other cities, too.

Also - what does Perez owe the fans? Why does he need to watch himself? We're last in attendance by a long shot and even after an All-Star season and 13 straight saves he gets boos and death threats. I love the idea that he should watch his mouth so as not to make the fans mad. Or what? The fans are already not coming and trashing this guy at every opportunity. What is left for the fans to threaten?

 

[Nom]

Perez is on Twitter saying he'll give away tickets to every game this year.

 

[Huber.]

Perez is on Twitter saying he'll give away tickets to every game this year.

Corey is on twitter sending death threats to Perez.

 

[WeinerSoBig]

This really is an interesting debate. I can kind of see both sides, but here is my opinion on all of this:

- The team was bought at the wrong time by the wrong owner. When Jacobs owned the Indians during the 90's, it was magical. Then he sold the team to someone who did not have as deep of pockets as Jacobs and the dismantling of that magical team completely dismantled the fan base.

- Dolan talks to much. Over the years, he's constantly saying that he cannot afford to pay for free agents if the attendance remains low.

- Then, a few months ago, Forbes publishes an article that shows the Indians are the most profitable team in baseball. I think it was this article that pissed the fans off the most. I think we are more than willing to support a team if the owner shows he's willing to spend and willing to show his loyalty to the city. I remember when this article came out, and 92.3 The Fan was criticizing Dolan more than anyone else in the city. Now they've done a complete flip-flop and now all you hear on 92.3 is their critcizim of the fans.

- I haven't seen the statics, but I've heard on the radio that this year's attendance to-date is more than last year's at this time. I actually find that to be amazing when you consider the Forbes article.

- And, now that it's public that the Indians are extremely profitable, the "affordability" argument has been taken away. So now we are hearing, "free agents won't come here because the fan support is horrible". I'm not buying it. Why haven't we heard this argument before this season, and before the Forbes article?

- As much as I like CP, he needs to keep his mouth shut. He's getting paid millions of dollars to be a professional/sports celebrity. He is now in complete damage control now that he's offering to give tickets away for free.

- If you think Cleveland is such a black hole, and the fan support is driving away free agents, just consider the following:

• During the 90's, major free agents wanted to play for the Indians. And some of them became publicly upset when they got traded or cut.
• When Shaq played for the Cavs, there was an article in the PD in which he said that the Cavs was one of the best organizations he’s played for, he enjoys the city of Cleveland, and he would like to continue to play for the Cavs.
• We’ve recently heard the story of Lebron hating it in Miami and wanting to return to the Cavs.
• We also heard during the trade deadline about Hickson wanting to return to the Cavs.

- And the last thing I’d like to say is that Cleveland is not a small market. Cleveland is more of a mid market. I’ve attached a link that shows Nielson’s market rankings. A few things that surprised me is that you will see that Cleveland and Miami are about the same size. Also, Boston ranks at #7. I thought they would be larger. And Pittsburgh, Indy, Baltimore, Columbus, Milwaukee, Cinci, and San Antonio are all significantly smaller than Cleveland. Here’s the link:

http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/.../tv/nielsen-2012-local-DMA-TV-penetration.pdf

 

[Nom]

This really is an interesting debate. I can kind of see both sides, but here is my opinion on all of this:

- The team was bought at the wrong time by the wrong owner. When Jacobs owned the Indians during the 90's, it was magical. Then he sold the team to someone who did not have as deep of pockets as Jacobs and the dismantling of that magical team completely dismantled the fan base.

- Dolan talks to much. Over the years, he's constantly saying that he cannot afford to pay for free agents if the attendance remains low.

- Then, a few months ago, Forbes publishes an article that shows the Indians are the most profitable team in baseball. I think it was this article that pissed the fans off the most. I think we are more than willing to support a team if the owner shows he's willing to spend and willing to show his loyalty to the city. I remember when this article came out, and 92.3 The Fan was criticizing Dolan more than anyone else in the city. Now they've done a complete flip-flop and now all you hear on 92.3 is their critcizim of the fans.

- I haven't seen the statics, but I've heard on the radio that this year's attendance to-date is more than last year's at this time. I actually find that to be amazing when you consider the Forbes article.

- And, now that it's public that the Indians are extremely profitable, the "affordability" argument has been taken away. So now we are hearing, "free agents won't come here because the fan support is horrible". I'm not buying it. Why haven't we heard this argument before this season, and before the Forbes article?

- As much as I like CP, he needs to keep his mouth shut. He's getting paid millions of dollars to be a professional/sports celebrity. He is now in complete damage control now that he's offering to give tickets away for free.

- If you think Cleveland is such a black hole, and the fan support is driving away free agents, just consider the following:

• During the 90's, major free agents wanted to play for the Indians. And some of them became publicly upset when they got traded or cut.
• When Shaq played for the Cavs, there was an article in the PD in which he said that the Cavs was one of the best organizations he’s played for, he enjoys the city of Cleveland, and he would like to continue to play for the Cavs.
• We’ve recently heard the story of Lebron hating it in Miami and wanting to return to the Cavs.
• We also heard during the trade deadline about Hickson wanting to return to the Cavs.

- And the last thing I’d like to say is that Cleveland is not a small market. Cleveland is more of a mid market. I’ve attached a link that shows Nielson’s market rankings. A few things that surprised me is that you will see that Cleveland and Miami are about the same size. Also, Boston ranks at #7. I thought they would be larger. And Pittsburgh, Indy, Baltimore, Columbus, Milwaukee, Cinci, and San Antonio are all significantly smaller than Cleveland. Here’s the link:

http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/.../tv/nielsen-2012-local-DMA-TV-penetration.pdf

A few quick points - this wasn't Dolan saying players won't sign, this was a player. I think we need to take a step back and realize Perez had nothing to gain by saying that and dismissing a player saying why players won't sign here because we know better is a bit crazy.

Yes, Cleveland is like the 17th I 18th Neilsen market - but their DMA includes Akron and Canton. They aren't drawing season ticke holders from those markets. Look at their metro area to get a better sense of where they stand in terms of drawing attendance. I believe they are around 33rd - behind Cincy.

Take a step back from the Forbes article. Do you REALLY think the Indians made more money than the Yankees last year? Why would baseball agree to a system where the Indians make more money than the Yankees. That would mean the Yankees were PAYING the Indians to turn more profit then them. Think through that logically. It makes no sense. We won't believe a PLAYER saying why other PLAYERS won't sign here, but we'll believe Forbes saying the Yankees are makin less than the Tribe?

 

[Nom]

Anyone comparing signing FA in the 90's to now is also way off. Looks at contracts today and tell me the game hasn't completely changed. Do you want the Tribe to sign CC for 7 years? It would be a disaster.

Also - Lofton left. Belle left. Where was the outrage and what FA were lining up to come here in the 90's?

 

[I.K.W.T]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Indians closer Chris Perez didnt back off comments about the fans. Said its "not a good atmosphere" and "not fun" to play in Cle</p>&mdash; Justin Albers (@Justin_Albers) <a href="https://twitter.com/Justin_Albers/status/204225974206865408" data-datetime="2012-05-20T15:04:01+00:00">May 20, 2012</a></blockquote>
<script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[WeinerSoBig]

A few quick points - this wasn't Dolan saying players won't sign, this was a player. I think we need to take a step back and realize Perez had nothing to gain by saying that and dismissing a player saying why players won't sign here because we know better is a bit crazy.

Yes, Cleveland is like the 17th I 18th Neilsen market - but their DMA includes Akron and Canton. They aren't drawing season ticke holders from those markets. Look at their metro area to get a better sense of where they stand in terms of drawing attendance. I believe they are around 33rd - behind Cincy.

Take a step back from the Forbes article. Do you REALLY think the Indians made more money than the Yankees last year? Why would baseball agree to a system where the Indians make more money than the Yankees. That would mean the Yankees were PAYING the Indians to turn more profit then them. Think through that logically. It makes no sense. We won't believe a PLAYER saying why other PLAYERS won't sign here, but we'll believe Forbes saying the Yankees are makin less than the Tribe?

- The only reason why Perez made those statements is because he was getting booed by the home crowd. It's obvious he was trying to take a shot at those fans booing him.

- It's perfectly fine to include Akron/Canton in those statisics. Nielson is using more square miles in measing the Boston area than they are in the CLE/Akron/Canton area. And most of the viewers in the outlying Boston aread don't get season tickets. Most come from those living closer to Boston. That's just common sense and should not discredit any statistics.

- Yes, I really think the Indians made more money than the Yankees. The Yankees' payroll is $200 million per year compared to the Indians' payroll of $78 million. That's a difference of $120 million per year. That's huge!! And yes, the Yankees are basically paying the Indians to turn more of a profit. It's called revenue sharing and it was George Steinbrenner's biggest complaint about the system. He was constantly complaining about having to share his profits with teams that don't put the $$ back into their system. They did make a few changes to try and correct this, but it's still a huge problem.