The Ongoing Attendance Problem

[Gunther]

-
- Yes, I really think the Indians made more money than the Yankees. The Yankees' payroll is $200 million per year compared to the Indians' payroll of $78 million. That's a difference of $120 million per year. That's huge!! And yes, the Yankees are basically paying the Indians to turn more of a profit. It's called revenue sharing and it was George Steinbrenner's biggest complaint about the system. He was constantly complaining about having to share his profits with teams that don't put the $$ back into their system. They did make a few changes to try and correct this, but it's still a huge problem.

The Yankees make at least 10 times the media revenue of the Indians on a yearly basis, and their ticket prices are higher with better attendance. No possible way the Indians make more money than the Yankees. People have to stop believing this crap.

 

[Maximus]

Yes, I really think the Indians made more money than the Yankees.

That's ridiculous...

 

[AZ_]

The Yankees make more money in revenue in their team shop than the Indians do overall.

Honestly one of the funniest points I've read here in a while, made my morning.

And Chris Perez is saying these things because that is the perception players have. Do you think he has no idea what it's like to be a player in Cleveland or something?

It's the truth, and while it sucks one of their own players was pushed to speak out against his own fans....it quite simply needed to be said and is 100 percent true.

 

[WeinerSoBig]

Anyone comparing signing FA in the 90's to now is also way off. Looks at contracts today and tell me the game hasn't completely changed. Do you want the Tribe to sign CC for 7 years? It would be a disaster.

Also - Lofton left. Belle left. Where was the outrage and what FA were lining up to come here in the 90's?

I haven't looked this up. This is just my memory of the 90's Indians. But the free agents were:

- Oral Hersheiser (sp?)
- David Justice
- Omar Visquel (I think we might have originally traded form him, but he did sign a few additional contracts with the Indians when he approached free agency)
- Robbie Alomar
- Juan Gonzalez

That's just a few and I'm sure there were more. Lofton did not leave, he got traded to the Braves. He didn't see it coming and he was absolutely devastated. He was traded the same year the All Star game was at the Jake. He came back as a Brave for the All Star game and he got an amazing standing ovation when they announced him. Again, I'm going by memory, but I think he came back to Cleveland as soon as he became a free agent. Robbie was either traded or we did not sign him to a new contract. Either way, he was very vocal about his displeasure with leaving the Indians. Robbie actually kept his house in Westlake for a good number of years after leaving the Indians. Same with Omar. He wasn't happy with the way he left the Indians either.

Back in the 90's, the Indians where the hot thing. We stunk for so long. Then the movie, "Major League" came out in the theaters and it was a huge hit across the nation. It was perfect timing because it was the very next season (I think) when the Indians started their amazing run. They suddenly became America's favorite team. I was going to college outside of Ohio at the time, and suddenly people on campus were wearing Indians hats. That was really cool cause I had never seen so many people outside Ohio wearing Indians hats. We had a couple of great seasons and suddenly a few players (Belle was one of the players) quickly became arrogant and cocky. I remember my brother-in-law, who was living in Texas at the time, was telling me that he and his friends/family were afraid the Indians reputation would quickly turn. He said they were starting to compare the Indians to the bad reputation the Dallas Cowboys had back in 90s.

All great memories. I do hope we can return to that magic again.

 

[WeinerSoBig]

That's ridiculous...

True, I should have said profit, not total revenue.

 

[AZ_]

True, I should have said profit, not total revenue.

Either way, you'd be wrong.

And wrong in a way that makes it look like you're arguing that you believe Michael Brantley has more power than Josh Hamilton.

 

[Maximus]

True, I should have said profit, not total revenue.

That's still ridiculous...

 

[AZ_]

I haven't looked this up. This is just my memory of the 90's Indians. But the free agents were:

- Oral Hersheiser (sp?)
- David Justice
- Omar Visquel (I think we might have originally traded form him, but he did sign a few additional contracts with the Indians when he approached free agency)
- Robbie Alomar
- Juan Gonzalez

That's just a few and I'm sure there were more. Lofton did not leave, he got traded to the Braves. He didn't see it coming and he was absolutely devastated. He was traded the same year the All Star game was at the Jake. He came back as a Brave for the All Star game and he got an amazing standing ovation when they announced him. Again, I'm going by memory, but I think he came back to Cleveland as soon as he became a free agent. Robbie was either traded or we did not sign him to a new contract. Either way, he was very vocal about his displeasure with leaving the Indians. Robbie actually kept his house in Westlake for a good number of years after leaving the Indians. Same with Omar. He wasn't happy with the way he left the Indians either.

Back in the 90's, the Indians where the hot thing. We stunk for so long. Then the movie, "Major League" came out in the theaters and it was a huge hit across the nation. It was perfect timing because it was the very next season (I think) when the Indians started their amazing run. They suddenly became America's favorite team. I was going to college outside of Ohio at the time, and suddenly people on campus were wearing Indians hats. That was really cool cause I had never seen so many people outside Ohio wearing Indians hats. We had a couple of great seasons and suddenly a few players (Belle was one of the players) quickly became arrogant and cocky. I remember my brother-in-law, who was living in Texas at the time, was telling me that he and his friends/family were afraid the Indians reputation would quickly turn. He said they were starting to compare the Indians to the bad reputation the Dallas Cowboys had back in 90s.

All great memories. I do hope we can return to that magic again.

Yeah, David Justice was traded for.

Hershiser and Juan Gonzalez were 1-2 year deals at the end of their careers.

You really need a lesson as to why the 90s were so much easier to field a competitive team, but I've made the argument so much I just don't have the inclination anymore.

Browns, economy, new ballpark, era of baseball...take your pick.


You bring up how Jacobs owned the team in the 90s, but he owned the team in the 80s too before the Browns left town and the economy was booming....did he only know how to be a good owner for the six years the team was good?

Don't think so.

 

[WeinerSoBig]

That's still ridiculous...

Good point. I should not have compared the Indians to the Yankees, as that's not what's being debated. What's being debated is why the attendance is so low. We all saw the numbers, and we all saw how much of a profit the Tribe makes annually. Maybe it's not as much as the Yanks, but its' still significant. We have also been listening to Dolan over the years state that he can't afford free agents because of low attendance. Once the profit was made public, Dolan suddenly stops using that as an excuse. You may think the Forbes article was wrong, but you can't prove it anymore than I can prove it was correct. Right or wrong, the perception of Dolan's cheapness is what's keeping attendance down. And that Forbes article did not help.

 

[AZ_]

Good point. I should not have compared the Indians to the Yankees, as that's not what's being debated. What's being debated is why the attendance is so low. We all saw the numbers, and we all saw how much of a profit the Tribe makes annually. Maybe it's not as much as the Yanks, but its' still significant. We have also been listening to Dolan over the years state that he can't afford free agents because of low attendance. Once the profit was made public, Dolan suddenly stops using that as an excuse. You may think the Forbes article was wrong, but you can't prove it anymore than I can prove it was correct. Right or wrong, the perception of Dolan's cheapness is what's keeping attendance down. And that Forbes article did not help.

So we haven't seen the numbers?

Again, you didn't use the Yankees...the article did.

And it's so painfully evident that the Indians don't make anywhere near the profit of the Yankees, thus I have no reason to take that article for any worth whatsoever.

 

[WeinerSoBig]

Yeah, David Justice was traded for.

Hershiser and Juan Gonzalez were 1-2 year deals at the end of their careers.

You really need a lesson as to why the 90s were so much easier to field a competitive team, but I've made the argument so much I just don't have the inclination anymore.

Browns, economy, new ballpark, era of baseball...take your pick.


You bring up how Jacobs owned the team in the 90s, but he owned the team in the 80s too before the Browns left town and the economy was booming....did he only know how to be a good owner for the six years the team was good?

Don't think so.

Hershiser and Gonzalez still significantly contributed to the team. I don't think they were ring chasing, like some of the NBA veterans are doing with the Heat. But they still put up decent numbers. And Robbie Alomar chose to play for the Indians, and not the Red Sox. Both the Indians and the Red Sox offered similar contracts.

Jacobs bought the tribe in 1986 and it took him 8 years to build the team to a power house. I understand the dynamics were different, but I also understand that, on an inflation adjusted basis, Jacobs spent more on payroll than Dolan does right now. And I get it, times are different now and you have to adjust your strategy. But to get back to the orignal debate....the average fan was enraged when Dolan bought the team, gutted the team, and drastically reduced payroll. I'm not sure if you were in the Cleveland area at the time, but Dolan was hated. People still feel this way and it's why attendance is not good. And the Forbes article did not help. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. But, attendance is higher at this point this year than last year. So maybe things are picking up a bit. I hope so. But the perception of Dolan is that he's not willing to commit to the team. We Cleveland fans have no problem supporting an owner who is committed to the team and the city.

 

[WeinerSoBig]

So we haven't seen the numbers?

Again, you didn't use the Yankees...the article did.

And it's so painfully evident that the Indians don't make anywhere near the profit of the Yankees, thus I have no reason to take that article for any worth whatsoever.

So you're basing your opinion on common sense. I don't blame you. But for anyone who has read Max's political posts, common sense tells us that he's an old, staunchy, white guy that never gets laid. And we all know that's not true.

 

[tedginnjr]

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_New-York-Yankees_334613.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Cleveland-Indians_333426.html

Ynakees had 427 million in revenue in 2011. Indians had 168.

The Yankees take in much higher revenue and make much higher profits.

 

[MoFlo]

And Robbie Alomar chose to play for the Indians, and not the Red Sox. Both the Indians and the Red Sox offered similar contracts.

Yeah, I'm sure his brother playing here had absolutely nothing to do with him signing here..

 

[WeinerSoBig]

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_New-York-Yankees_334613.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Cleveland-Indians_333426.html

Ynakees had 427 million in revenue in 2011. Indians had 168.

The Yankees take in much higher revenue and make much higher profits.

It's your second link the supports my opinion as to why attendance is low. Dolan has stated many times that he's losing $$. Your link supports the fact that he's making a profit. Right or wrong, fans see that Dolan has lied and that's why they won't support him. Thanks for sharing that link. I was looking for that.