Wedge a Dead Man Managing

[xAusT1n]

Re: Wedge to be fired today?

Only a year late...

 

[Corey]

Re: Wedge to be fired today?

Interesting Tweet From Rich Fields

Not all #Wedge's fault @evilchameleon #Indians had early injuries they never got over. But 11-game losing streak and dropping 20 of last 25?

 

[BooyaCS]

Re: Wedge to be fired today?

Also on the game yesterday Manning said the whole Carmona situation was also what got him fired. That Carmona had a great 2007 and couldn't build off of that and regressed to high A ball.

 

[DougHeil]

ah shoot; we have heard for many years about how the injuries were a reason for the Indians playing badly. I'm so sick of that excuse. We played badly out of the gate BEFORE injuries took place in most of those years. EVERY team has injuries. They deal with it the best they can. It's the nature of Professional sports in general. Teams either deal with injuries real well in a year and go on to the playoffs in spite of them, or they don't deal with real well and miss the playoffs badly.

I've been a proponent of firing Wedge ever since we blew the 2007 series against Boston. I've never waffled or flip flopped from that. But I got to say, what Wedge did yesterday in handling the situation was truly an impressive thing to see. I will never think Wedge was or is a good Manager, but damn, the man has a ton of class. We all could only dream of handling a firing with such dignity, class, and Professionalism. Kudos to Eric Wedge!

 

[AZ_]

Wedge could ALWAYS get the young players to make the jump to the big league level.

Grady, Jhonny, Victor, Hafner, Choo.

Cabrera, Guti and Carmona in 2007.


It's when they become big leaguers and need to take that next step is where Wedge fails miserably. We saw people like Grady, Hafner, Peralta, Gutierrez and Carmona ALL fail to get over THAT hump time and time again...it's something you just can't live with after a certain time.

 

[macbdog]

Re: Wedge to be fired today?

Only a year late...

....so what manager in baseball would have won with a staff of Cliff Lee, Fausto Carmona, Carl Pavano, and a cavalcade of question marks? With the bullpen that started the year? With an injured Sizemore and still-gimpy Hafner? What manager would have won in 2007, with a bullpen led by 5 implosions (Betancourt, Lewis, Perez, Borowsk)? Or a rotation that lost its' no. 2, 3 and 4 starters? Cliff Lee's return last year was awesome only it came with the loss of 3 other productive arms (Carmona, Westbrook, Byrd). How about Hafner going from diminished to useless?

Wedge had to go and fans are entitled to that opinion. He hasn't made excuses and taken the blame. However let's not be delusional here about the problems with this team the last two years. They included but extended well beyond anything the manager could have done.

 

[macbdog]

Wedge could ALWAYS get the young players to make the jump to the big league level.

Grady, Jhonny, Victor, Hafner, Choo.

Cabrera, Guti and Carmona in 2007.


It's when they become big leaguers and need to take that next step is where Wedge fails miserably. We saw people like Grady, Hafner, Peralta, Gutierrez and Carmona ALL fail to get over THAT hump time and time again...it's something you just can't live with after a certain time.

Wait- what hump did Grady not ascend? The one from awesome all-around CFer to super-awesome? Hafner from one of the most feared hitters in baseball to a gimpy-shouldered shell? Peralta's up-and-down performance, or his rookie year that was an outlier from his past performance and expectations? Carmona's collapse? I think you are lumping many very different situations together, and I don't see them as being related to the manager at all. The players at some point are responsible for their own growth and development.

Wedge's job is to guide the herd- and in that way, he deserves blame. The team didn't win like they were expected to, he didn't find the right mix. But the individual players? This is their career, and it is their responsibility for their own play. Ron Gardenhire's teams win despite numerous prospect bombings/failings/fadings. Same goes for Ozzie. In that vein, by all means blame Wedge. This can't reallly be disputed. However I don't see how various individual players' inability to grow in certain areas is the fault of the manager. Maybe the coaches, but the blame ultimately rests on the individual. Keep the blame where it belongs- on the wins and losses.

 

[DougHeil]

Re: Wedge to be fired today?

....so what manager in baseball would have won with a staff of Cliff Lee, Fausto Carmona, Carl Pavano, and a cavalcade of question marks? With the bullpen that started the year? With an injured Sizemore and still-gimpy Hafner? What manager would have won in 2007, with a bullpen led by 5 implosions (Betancourt, Lewis, Perez, Borowsk)? Or a rotation that lost its' no. 2, 3 and 4 starters? Cliff Lee's return last year was awesome only it came with the loss of 3 other productive arms (Carmona, Westbrook, Byrd). How about Hafner going from diminished to useless?

Wedge had to go and fans are entitled to that opinion. He hasn't made excuses and taken the blame. However let's not be delusional here about the problems with this team the last two years. They included but extended well beyond anything the manager could have done.

You make some good points, but the majority thought that before this year we had a good, if not great bullpen. Something had to happen to allow that pen to end up being almost the worse in baseball.

Also; very slow starts are not explained away by injuries, etc. Something has been horribly wrong with how we approach spring training, etc.

I know of one thing Wedge always stated about a full season of baseball. I'm paraphrasing, but this is a summary. .... the season is a grind. One loss at the start of the year is no big deal as you can always make up that lose. In other words, the start of the year is not the thing that really matters, but it's how you end up the year that really matters.

He has said something like that time and time again. I dispute that reasoning almost totally. I feel the first game of the year is just as important, if not more so, than a game right after the all star break. In my mind, it's VERY important to have a good start to any season. Wedge did not believe this and the players played in that exact way.

 

[BooyaCS]

The thing with Carmona is this. You notice he is struggling so then you send the pitching coach after him to help him correct his issues. The problem was Lee didn't start pitching until we sent him down to the minors. The hitting philosophy sucked. The ingame adjustments and managing the pen also were subpar as well.

Then factor in the Changing of the lineup almost nightly. Misuing pitchers and the handling of several situations (Hit and Run, Squeeze, Steals). Also you can factor in the fact he has run players out of town. Brandon Phillips, Bradley (thank god) and that Peralta cannot stand him with the way he was treated.

All of these have been exposed over the years and are valid reasons to let him go. However the most valid is this 1 playoff appearance in 7 years with a collapse against the Red Sox being up 3-1 in the ALCS.

 

[DougHeil]

BTW: This is what Wedge said even yesterday about slow starts and finishes:

"To me, it's always been about how you finish, not how you start," said Wedge. "We would have liked to get off to better starts than we did, but it didn't happen."

Huh? No it's not.

 

[Chris]

BTW: This is what Wedge said even yesterday about slow starts and finishes:



Huh? No it's not.

A lot of people think this and it's really not true. Why the hell would you want to be playing catch up all season long?

 

[DougHeil]

A lot of people think this and it's really not true. Why the hell would you want to be playing catch up all season long?

Yep. It makes no sense. It's like saying it's okay to lose in the first half as long as you finish strong, IE: last year. NO IT's NOT OKAY.

 

[macbdog]

He is saying that your final record is what counts. Yes, how you start has an impact on that but the slow starts aren't what mattered to him, what mattered was not making the playoffs, not winning the title, etc. I think it makes no sense that folks disagree with this- so you don't care that the Cavs started off great last year but went home without a title? are we going to have sparkling memories of the Nov 08 Cavs, or of the disappointment in how 08 ended? All fans care about is how the season ends.

 

[PIP]

Well, ya just gotta tip your cap..

 

[Chris]

He is saying that your final record is what counts. Yes, how you start has an impact on that but the slow starts aren't what mattered to him, what mattered was not making the playoffs, not winning the title, etc. I think it makes no sense that folks disagree with this- so you don't care that the Cavs started off great last year but went home without a title? are we going to have sparkling memories of the Nov 08 Cavs, or of the disappointment in how 08 ended? All fans care about is how the season ends.

We're talking regular season because the Indians making the playoffs is a successful season as opposed to the Cavs where anything less than a title is failure.

Let's face it, you can't have slow fucking starts. Bottom line.